The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[flygirlqt]

Title does not match events. USAPA is not disappearing anytime soon.

The narrow question Silver is deciding is whether or not USAPA violated its DFR by not including the NIC in the MOU (actually everyone that negotiated and voted for it left it out).

Silver has already telegraphed the answer to that narrow question in the past but she also has come up with some wild rulings of her own. She is unpredictable and there is no telling what will pop out of her court.

Actually, Judge Silver is very predictable in her rulings. The true problem is a group of usapa sycophants that have no shame and refuse to honor their own agreements. The situation is further compounded by stunning arrogance and impotent legal arguments that eventually fail.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I don't really care if Silver orders the Nic to be used. I want to see her order eye-wateringly high monetary damages to the west pilots who have been harmed through USAPA's actions. I think that will be enough motivation to dump DOH from the C&BL's and actually use the Nic list in negotiations with APA.

Just because Silver may order the Nic to be used as the opener doesn't mean you can trust USAPA to not attempt to add DOH side deals during negotiations. They cannot be trusted to do the right thing, thus the only verifiable justice will be in the form of cash.

 

[Flybywire44]

Fishy!!! Read Usapa's legal update and see what smells fishy...Usapa is always manipulating the message for the masses...

So in other words, Green's post was just like the age 67 rumor?manufactured and fake.

I'm trying to ask a question Carl S.

Is this whole thread is a joke?

 

[General Lee]

Leonidas Update


Dear Xxxxxxx,

Late yesterday afternoon, Judge Roslyn Silver issued a comprehensive order that on balance is favorable to the West Pilots. We will comment in greater detail soon, but here is a summary. You can download and read the order "here."

To begin, Judge Silver denied USAPA's motion to dismiss and held that the case is now ripe for adjudication. Ripeness has eluded the West Pilots so far, but now our wait is over. We will have our day in court, our trial is scheduled to start September 24th, 2013. On that day USAPA can explain how a labor union is free to abandon the result of an arbitration when the majority does not approve of the result, yet still be in compliance with their Duty to Fairly Represent the West. USAPA has desperately avoided having to answer this question for nearly six years, but now there is no more delay.

Also in yesterday?s order, US Airways? motion to dismiss our complaint was granted. In addition, Judge Silver denied AMR?s request to join this litigation and she denied bringing the Allied Pilots Association in as well. While we are disappointed in a sense that US Airways was dismissed, the reality is that the East-controlled USAPA is the root cause of the troubles for the West.

The sooner we get to a judicial conclusion, the better for all ? West, East, and even American pilots. This will be the world?s largest airline and with it, the combined AMR-AWA-USA pilot group will be in a position to join our UAL-CAL and DAL-NWA brothers and sisters in regaining what has been lost by pilots since 9/11.

Finally, we want to once again thank all those who have contributed to this legal cause. Leonidas was formed nearly six years ago with the stated objective of preserving the West Pilots? seniority rights. Nobody gave the West a chance to stand up against the East-controlled USAPA. Well, the West did stand up, and three million dollars in legal fees later ? we?re still here.

Have a great weekend.

Sincerely,



Sounds like they feel confident......



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Actually, Judge Silver is very predictable in her rulings. The true problem is a group of usapa sycophants that have no shame and refuse to honor their own agreements. The situation is further compounded by stunning arrogance and impotent legal arguments that eventually fail.

Predictable?


..just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it
remained the pilots? representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition
Agreement. But being ?bound? by the Transition Agreement has very little
meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition
Agreement can be modified at any time ?by written agreement of [USAPA] and
the [US Airways].? (Judge Silver)



Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an
entirely new collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious
impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon
any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the Ninth Circuit,
?seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement,
and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.? (Judge Silver)




MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in
to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that
USAPA does not have to accept the Nicolau Award
as the only basis upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now, that's what I said; correct?



MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't. <<-------------- That was Wake's injunction

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought I
resolved which is it can be considered. It should be
considered. There has been a determination that it's fair but
that doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

 

[Green]

So in other words, Green's post was just like the age 67 rumor?manufactured and fake.

I'm trying to ask a question Carl S.

Is this whole thread is a joke?

Flybywire,

No it's not manufactured. I am way too lazy to create a fake document of that length. I'm sure there is a way to find it online under court documents but I don't want to waste my morning searching. You can find the link at http://www.cactuspilot.com/ or possibly the usapa homepage (although they have a habit of keeping the truth from the true believers).

As Turtle stated USAPA is free to negotiate any seniority list they desire. They could negotiate one based on alphabetical order, weight, drawing names from a hat, etc. But as the judge stated (paraphrase) and Turtle failed to mention, a neutral arbitrator's result is a strong indication of a fair result and discarding it would place them on dangerous grounds.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

What I don't understand


Bye Bye---General Lee

Is most things aviation....

 

[General Lee]

Is most things aviation....

I hear you understand the Brasilia pretty well, and "Uncle" Stan really well. That's great for you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Is most things aviation....

Double post...

 

[Flybywire44]

Flybywire,

No it's not manufactured. I am way too lazy to create a fake document of that length. I'm sure there is a way to find it online under court documents but I don't want to waste my morning searching. You can find the link at http://www.cactuspilot.com/ or possibly the usapa homepage (although they have a habit of keeping the truth from the true believers).

As Turtle stated USAPA is free to negotiate any seniority list they desire. They could negotiate one based on alphabetical order, weight, drawing names from a hat, etc. But as the judge stated (paraphrase) and Turtle failed to mention, a neutral arbitrator's result is a strong indication of a fair result and discarding it would place them on dangerous grounds.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Ahhh. http://cactuspilot.com/ was not updated with this document when you posted it.

I was thinking this historical section was old and the first paragraph was manufactured.

http://cactuspilot.com is off it's A game!

Well, I'm very eager to see this issue resolved in the next couple years! :beer:

 

[abefly]

Ahhh. http://cactuspilot.com/ was not updated with this document when you posted it.

I was thinking this historical section was old and the first paragraph was manufactured.

http://cactuspilot.com is off it's A game!

Well, I'm very eager to see this issue resolved in the next couple years! :beer:

I agree I look forward to it getting resolved. It won't be a couple of years.
By Halloween there will be a system bid to correct the last 8 years worth of out of seniority upgrades.

 

[flygirlqt]

Predictable?


..just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it
remained the pilots? representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition
Agreement. But being ?bound? by the Transition Agreement has very little
meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition
Agreement can be modified at any time ?by written agreement of [USAPA] and
the [US Airways].? (Judge Silver)



Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an
entirely new collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious
impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon
any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the Ninth Circuit,
?seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement,
and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.? (Judge Silver)




MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in
to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that
USAPA does not have to accept the Nicolau Award
as the only basis upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now, that's what I said; correct?



MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't. <<-------------- That was Wake's injunction

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought I
resolved which is it can be considered. It should be
considered. There has been a determination that it's fair but
that doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

You are going to base your entire belief about her decisions from the bench from a few comments from transcripts? Do you not see what is about to happen here?

All of you need a serious come to jesus discussion with your lawyers.

 

[Ocity]

Predictable?


..just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it
remained the pilots? representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition
Agreement. But being ?bound? by the Transition Agreement has very little
meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition
Agreement can be modified at any time ?by written agreement of [USAPA] and
the [US Airways].? (Judge Silver)



Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an
entirely new collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious
impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon
any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the Ninth Circuit,
?seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement,
and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.? (Judge Silver)




MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in
to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that
USAPA does not have to accept the Nicolau Award
as the only basis upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now, that's what I said; correct?



MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't. <<-------------- That was Wake's injunction

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought I
resolved which is it can be considered. It should be
considered. There has been a determination that it's fair but
that doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

i see you STILL have no idea what is happening. She gave USAPA every opportunity to find Jesus and do their job. USAPA just kept giving her the finger. Party's over for the Scumbag Fake Union.

 

[Carl S.]

Post the part from May when Usapa said their LUP was that the Nic. was not fair, my favorite defense...

 

[cactusboy53]

In March 2013, a group of West Pilots, on behalf of themselves and others similarly
situated, filed this suit recounting the above facts and alleging USAPA breached its duty of
fair representation ?by entering into the MOU with the firm intention of using a date-of-hire
seniority list rather than the Nicolau Award list.? (Doc. 1 at 13). This allegation is

98% yes vote out West now you sue?

JohhnyB;

USAPA has made it quite clear what LIST they refuse to submit to the merged pilot integration with APA. Doing so has firmly placed USAPA on DANGEROUS GROUND (Remember Judge Wake told USAPA this). I won't bother to quote Judge Silver further, as you folks only read into the court documents what parallels your DOH scheme.

The company & APA insist that our seniority be determined (it's already complete) before proceeding to the seniority between US Airways & AMR.

Sit tight. This shouldn't take long.

 

[PuffDriver]

I don't really care if Silver orders the Nic to be used. I want to see her order eye-wateringly high monetary damages to the west pilots who have been harmed through USAPA's actions. I think that will be enough motivation to dump DOH from the C&BL's and actually use the Nic list in negotiations with APA.

Just because Silver may order the Nic to be used as the opener doesn't mean you can trust USAPA to not attempt to add DOH side deals during negotiations. They cannot be trusted to do the right thing, thus the only verifiable justice will be in the form of cash.

Not surprising. The west pilots haven't been harmed by squat.

They are clinging to a biased arbitration award like grim death; the reason they are is that it is so lopsided with regard to fairness, that they have no choice but to sue or they lose their lottery ticket.

The award was so lopsided, that it actually was the straw which broke the camel's back and caused a divided east group to actually vote out ALPA

The award was so lopsided that ALPA changed its policy with regard to mergers and seniority lists; an "oops, we didn't know this might happen knee-jerk response"

The award was so lopsided, it has set groundbreaking standards for a seniority list not being implemented. It actually used suppositions with regard to its award logic, it gave the top 500+ spots to one side, it gave one side immediate access to widebody global flying, it gave a 4 month pilot immediate access to a captain seat. Awards since then have made dispensation for all.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of pilots watching from the outside who do NOT agree with the award at all. The only difference is that it did not happen to them, yet another reason for the advance of USAPA. While all pilots would like to point fingers at the USAir pilots, USAPA is a product of all of us. USAPA is about survival, something the America West pilots have NEVER undertaken. USAPA is a product of the lack of unity, and the lack of definitive action on the part of ALPA national.

FAR more damage has been done by SWAPA in the history of our airlines. Talk about a group that serves nobody but themselves!!! America West was along the same lines. These groups are the reason for the deterioration in the quality of the life of the airline pilot. USAir had been part of the gold standard. They did their part.

SWAPA, America West, Spirit, Virgin America, Allegiant, jetblue, regionals are all examples of failed policy at the national union level. Now, we work more for less. We have essentially lost a defined retirement. Medical benefits are lagging in a profession where health is paramount. Work rules have slid backwards. Retirement age has been raised in an industry which crosses multiple time zones, works 16 hour days, and continuously walks a fine line of safety.

While you condemn the USAir pilots to scabdom, at least have the balls to admit that you got a windfall at their expense. Otherwise, you wouldn't be spending so much money to preserve it, and thus continue the windfall at the AA pilot's expense. Funny how that excerpt is now removed from National's policy. Only a fool would believe that a crummy airline in the desert--who's routes have largely been abandoned and whom was 1/3 owned by the government :erm:--came in and saved the day by pulling an airline heavily based in the population center of america back from the brink. Laughable to say the least, especially when you see what the airline looks like today.

The award meets NO test of objective fairness, except to keep the two airlines' apart and fenced. Perhaps those pesky east pilots are rats, but look what happens when you corner one.

 

[abefly]

Not surprising. The west pilots haven't been harmed by squat.

They are clinging to a biased arbitration award like grim death; the reason they are is that it is so lopsided with regard to fairness, that they have no choice but to sue or they lose their lottery ticket.

The award was so lopsided, that it actually was the straw which broke the camel's back and caused a divided east group to actually vote out ALPA

The award was so lopsided that ALPA changed its policy with regard to mergers and seniority lists; an "oops, we didn't know this might happen knee-jerk response"

The award was so lopsided, it has set groundbreaking standards for a seniority list not being implemented. It actually used suppositions with regard to its award logic, it gave the top 500+ spots to one side, it gave one side immediate access to widebody global flying, it gave a 4 month pilot immediate access to a captain seat. Awards since then have made dispensation for all.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of pilots watching from the outside who do NOT agree with the award at all. The only difference is that it did not happen to them, yet another reason for the advance of USAPA. While all pilots would like to point fingers at the USAir pilots, USAPA is a product of all of us. USAPA is about survival, something the America West pilots have NEVER undertaken. USAPA is a product of the lack of unity, and the lack of definitive action on the part of ALPA national.

FAR more damage has been done by SWAPA in the history of our airlines. Talk about a group that serves nobody but themselves!!! America West was along the same lines. These groups are the reason for the deterioration in the quality of the life of the airline pilot. USAir had been part of the gold standard. They did their part.

SWAPA, America West, Spirit, Virgin America, Allegiant, jetblue, regionals are all examples of failed policy at the national union level. Now, we work more for less. We have essentially lost a defined retirement. Medical benefits are lagging in a profession where health is paramount. Work rules have slid backwards. Retirement age has been raised in an industry which crosses multiple time zones, works 16 hour days, and continuously walks a fine line of safety.

While you condemn the USAir pilots to scabdom, at least have the balls to admit that you got a windfall at their expense. Otherwise, you wouldn't be spending so much money to preserve it, and thus continue the windfall at the AA pilot's expense. Funny how that excerpt is now removed from National's policy. Only a fool would believe that a crummy airline in the desert--who's routes have largely been abandoned and whom was 1/3 owned by the government :erm:--came in and saved the day by pulling an airline heavily based in the population center of america back from the brink. Laughable to say the least, especially when you see what the airline looks like today.

The award meets NO test of objective fairness, except to keep the two airlines' apart and fenced. Perhaps those pesky east pilots are rats, but look what happens when you corner one.

Sounds about right. Typical "Gold Standard" East pilot response. Check your facts.

 

[PuffDriver]

Sounds about right. Typical "Gold Standard" East pilot response. Check your facts.

Only I'm not an east pilot. Typical red herring response. Check YOUR facts

 

[Carl S.]

PuffDriver, your rant has so many errors where do we start? Still listening to those USAPA updates? Be prepared for some bad news soon if we wrap this up 9/24...

 

[reepicheep]

The airline based in the population center of America couldn't make money. Flying commuter routes with a legacy model didn't work. And still doesn't, probably; not if you factor out the tremendous cost advantage they have enjoyed with bankruptcy-era labor contracts. Good luck American, you're gonna need it.