The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[PuffDriver]

Date of hire???!!! What? Date of hire is not "relative" period...Unless of course you're an 18 year plus US Airway FO pre merger then of course you try your best to find someone...anyone that can will buy your BS story about a date of hire intergration. Weekends off, Vacation, reserve versus line holder, and upgrades are based on RELATIVE because it's umm relative.......pathetic. As I said to a former US Airways Pilot y'all were always going to have a hard time intergrating with another airline because of your years and years of stagnation.

Don't agree, never will.

AWA got immediate access to a much better airline, from a strategic point of view, from a revenue point of view, from a leverage point of view, from an equipment point of view---all for "saving" USAir, which is debatable at best.

Relative seniority ignores tangibles and intangibles. Throw in the lack of any kind of fence to adjust for those, and you have a drastically lopsided result which is what led to where they are today.

....and now they gain access to a larger global airline, more global airplanes, a much better contract than they could ever hope to gain as a crap desert outfit; all from a much stronger seniority position. That dog doesn't hunt.

 

[Ocity]

Don't agree, never will.

AWA got immediate access to a much better airline, from a strategic point of view, from a revenue point of view, from a leverage point of view, from an equipment point of view---all for "saving" USAir, which is debatable at best.

Relative seniority ignores tangibles and intangibles. Throw in the lack of any kind of fence to adjust for those, and you have a drastically lopsided result which is what led to where they are today.

Us air was a twice...very nearly THRICE bankrupt airline with absolutely NO future before that drunk idiot Parker decided to go bargain hunting in the basement for garbage. He found it...and the infection spread. You seem to forget about the 1900 furloughed they dragged to the merger...I'll repeat that it was actually, ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY NINE furloughees.

Sorry, but from this outsiders view, the USAPA cheerleaders and voters are nothing but emotional, fratricidal scabs. I will NEVER have any sympathy for those pricks. Ever.

 

[reepicheep]

I guess the Titanic looked bigger and better too.

As it happened though he has a point.....the Airways deal eventually lead to the AA deal & hopefully better days for all concerned.

 

[PuffDriver]

Us air was a twice...very nearly THRICE bankrupt airline with absolutely NO future before that drunk idiot Parker decided to go bargain hunting in the basement for garbage. He found it...and the infection spread. You seem to forget about the 1900 furloughed they dragged to the merger...I'll repeat that it was actually, ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY NINE furloughees.

Sorry, but from this outsiders view, the USAPA cheerleaders and voters are nothing but emotional, fratricidal scabs. I will NEVER have any sympathy for those pricks. Ever.

Who said anything about sympathy? This is about the industry and the precedents that are set. What happens when mesa is combined with AWA. Relative seniority? BTW, those 1900 (which really wasn't 1900) had all been offered recall when the list actually came out. Also, a lot of them had never even left the property, but were flying for a "shell" corporation designed to create a new lower scale of compensation for the industry to accept. Although it never materialized, the concept was never operated outside the scope of the USAir PWA, USAir dispatch authority, nor USAir operating manuals.

Besides that, BK has nothing to do with pilots. It's all about taking advantage of temporarily underprivileged group. Temporary being the active word. Thus, we--as occupation--fail.

How about a possible tangible example: Delta with, say, Alaska. Relative seniority? Two pretty stellar airlines at the moment, quite profitable. Your going to give a senior Alaska pilot access to international 777/747? Do you begin slotting at 737, in effect slotting senior captains in with 90-97 hires? Do you go DOH and fence widebodies off of AK guys for X years?

Whats fair, objectively?

 

[Turtle21]

Whats fair, objectively?

Is it fair that pilot promotions and pay raises are not based on distinctions of skill? Isn't skill a fair way?

I throw out the "skill" question as a red herring. Fact is distinctions of skill don't matter much in this industry (what difference does it make if one pilot gets a 95% on their ATP written and another gets 100%?)

We can't compete to win a better piloting job by promising to fly better than the next guy... So the only way to compete against other pilots is to fly the same for less money...

The whole idea of a union is to prevent pilots from competing/undercutting each other.

DOH is the objective mechanism to keep all pilots unified so that management can't divide them to cut each others throat to fly for less. DOH prevents cannibalistic competition among pilots, but human nature craves a free steak. So yeah DOH is vital to the industry but their are plenty of people that can't resist trying to get something at his neighbor's detriment.

 

[PuffDriver]

Is it fair that pilot promotions and pay raises are not based on distinctions of skill? Isn't skill a fair way?

I throw out the "skill" question as a red herring. Fact is distinctions of skill don't matter much in this industry (what difference does it make if one pilot gets a 95% on their ATP written and another gets 100%?)

We can't compete to win a better piloting job by promising to fly better than the next guy... So the only way to compete against other pilots is to fly the same for less money...

The whole idea of a union is to prevent pilots from competing/undercutting each other.

DOH is the objective mechanism to keep all pilots unified so that management can't divide them to cut each others throat to fly for less. DOH prevents cannibalistic competition among pilots, but human nature craves a free steak. So yeah DOH is vital to the industry but their are plenty of people that can't resist trying to get something at his neighbor's detriment.

Yup. That is what we call seeing the forest through the trees ====^

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

PuffDriver,

Are you a pre-merger Delta pilot?

 

[Carl S.]

Lots of old 1980's AAA hires here trying to get revenge for their bad choices made years ago...Should have left AAA long ago for better jobs, AAA was the junkyard of aviation 1998 to 2005....

 

[Turtle21]

Hey everyone AWA just made the best quarterly profit in company history (400M$)by flying all those PAX out of PHX. We Westies were brilliant to go to a $h!ty airline that nobody bothered to apply to in the 80s and 90s. Now we are going to fly APAs 777s because we saved AMR. We will rule the airline world because we are smarter than all the other pilots, and we deserve it! Not.

 

[TWA Dude]

Besides that, BK has nothing to do with pilots.

Agreed, and I'll say again that a pilot's worth has nothing to do with the financial condition of his airline.

But for some reason you keep ignoring the USAir pilots' career expectations in 2005: over a third of their list already furloughed with more coming. AWA in 2005 was hiring and had scheduled growth airplane deliveries. Add to that the USAir BK-decimated contract and that's why George Nicolau stated: "This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues."

It's all about taking advantage of temporarily underprivileged group. Temporary being the active word.

First of all, Nicolau made the decision so the accusatory "taking advantage" just belies your bias against the AWA pilots. Second, it's laughable to infer USAir's troubles in 2005 were "temporary". Suffice it to say nobody except liars and the severely deluded think USAir would've lasted even another month without a merger.

Mind you, none of this was the pilots' fault and I don't use the word "deserve". But read the Nicolau Award again. For the USAir pilots to regain what they lost can only come at the expense of the AWA pilots. Truly neutral observers (IOW, not people like you) can plainly see the unfairness of that. So you can believe DOH is the only fair way to integrate but the people who actually get to make that decision are more interested in fairness than you are.

 

[captairbusbb]

Don't agree, never will.

AWA got immediate access to a much better airline, from a strategic point of view, from a revenue point of view, from a leverage point of view, from an equipment point of view---all for "saving" USAir, which is debatable at best.

Relative seniority ignores tangibles and intangibles. Throw in the lack of any kind of fence to adjust for those, and you have a drastically lopsided result which is what led to where they are today.

....and now they gain access to a larger global airline, more global airplanes, a much better contract than they could ever hope to gain as a crap desert outfit; all from a much stronger seniority position. That dog doesn't hunt.

Crap desert outfit???...WTF....USAir was nothing more than Trans Pennsylvania flying....Go back on your meds please!!

 

[vetrider]

Agreed, and I'll say again that a pilot's worth has nothing to do with the financial condition of his airline.

But for some reason you keep ignoring the USAir pilots' career expectations in 2005: over a third of their list already furloughed with more coming. AWA in 2005 was hiring and had scheduled growth airplane deliveries. Add to that the USAir BK-decimated contract and that's why George Nicolau stated: "This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues."
First of all, Nicolau made the decision so the accusatory "taking advantage" just belies your bias against the AWA pilots. Second, it's laughable to infer USAir's troubles in 2005 were "temporary". Suffice it to say nobody except liars and the severely deluded think USAir would've lasted even another month without a merger.

Mind you, none of this was the pilots' fault and I don't use the word "deserve". But read the Nicolau Award again. For the USAir pilots to regain what they lost can only come at the expense of the AWA pilots. Truly neutral observers (IOW, not people like you) can plainly see the unfairness of that. So you can believe DOH is the only fair way to integrate but the people who actually get to make that decision are more interested in fairness than you are.

********************in A Bubba. I don't think I've ever seen it laid out any better than that.

 

[Hpilot]

********************in A Bubba. I don't think I've ever seen it laid out any better than that.

I'll second that.

 

[Ocity]

I'll second that.

Triple it

 

[johnsonrod]

Two words: back pay!