The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[PuffDriver]

PuffDriver, your rant has so many errors where do we start? Still listening to those USAPA updates? Be prepared for some bad news soon if we wrap this up 9/24...

Apparently, you start nowhere, or you would have. I'll prep myself for bad news on the 24th, although it has nothing to do with me. I'm sure the American pilots will be prepping to get reamed on the SLI since they are in bankruptcy. Or perhaps that dog won't hunt twice in arbitration. Perhaps some real fences might just do the trick, if NIC has learned his lesson with the lack of fences.

USAPA is like an aircraft accident. Everyone says "Whoops, never saw that coming!!!" Then the rules change to prevent a reoccurrence. You can make up whatever facts suit your argument. I really don't care. The heart of the matter is what it is, the rest is just eyewash.

 

[PuffDriver]

The airline based in the population center of America couldn't make money. Flying commuter routes with a legacy model didn't work. And still doesn't, probably; not if you factor out the tremendous cost advantage they have enjoyed with bankruptcy-era labor contracts. Good luck American, you're gonna need it.

You may very well be right. We will never know the real story, and neither did the arbitrator. You can say the same about America West. Perhaps they both should have gone away. Perhaps Delta should have in its BK as well, or United, or CAL.

Thank you for clarifying my point. There is no gold standard for which you can merge a seniority list that isn't subjective other than the date which everyone was hired. That is the day that they threw their hat into the airline ring. Politics, agendas, book cooking, fences all have a way of distorting the facts to suit the eye of the beholder.

Normally it ends up fairly ok, but not this time. Now we have gone off the grid. I just find it interesting that everyone has "facts" to skew their perception of fairness, when they really aren't facts. One thing is for sure, pilots have little to nothing to do with the financial success of their company. They have everything to gain by trying to take advantage of other pilot groups. Thus, the slow division and demise of our profession continues.

 

[Flybywire44]

You may very well be right. We will never know the real story, and neither did the arbitrator. You can say the same about America West. Perhaps they both should have gone away. Perhaps Delta should have in its BK as well, or United, or CAL.

Thank you for clarifying my point. There is no gold standard for which you can merge a seniority list that isn't subjective other than the date which everyone was hired. That is the day that they threw their hat into the airline ring. Politics, agendas, book cooking, fences all have a way of distorting the facts to suit the eye of the beholder.

Normally it ends up fairly ok, but not this time. Now we have gone off the grid. I just find it interesting that everyone has "facts" to skew their perception of fairness, when they really aren't facts. One thing is for sure, pilots have little to nothing to do with the financial success of their company. They have everything to gain by trying to take advantage of other pilot groups. Thus, the slow division and demise of our profession continues.

Can you imagine if US Airways and America West had liquidated?

Gosh, count your blessings folks! East and West all lucky to be employed!

On top of that your jobs already pay much more than the national average! :beer:

 

[Turtle21]

You are going to base your entire belief about her decisions from the bench from a few comments from transcripts? Do you not see what is about to happen here?

All of you need a serious come to jesus discussion with your lawyers.

You are so right. She never meant any of those things she said, so its obvious what she really meant, and what she will really do.

 

[71driver]

Date of hire???!!! What? Date of hire is not "relative" period...Unless of course you're an 18 year plus US Airway FO pre merger then of course you try your best to find someone...anyone that can will buy your BS story about a date of hire intergration. Weekends off, Vacation, reserve versus line holder, and upgrades are based on RELATIVE because it's umm relative.......pathetic. As I said to a former US Airways Pilot y'all were always going to have a hard time intergrating with another airline because of your years and years of stagnation.

 

[PuffDriver]

Date of hire???!!! What? Date of hire is not "relative" period...Unless of course you're an 18 year plus US Airway FO pre merger then of course you try your best to find someone...anyone that can will buy your BS story about a date of hire intergration. Weekends off, Vacation, reserve versus line holder, and upgrades are based on RELATIVE because it's umm relative.......pathetic. As I said to a former US Airways Pilot y'all were always going to have a hard time intergrating with another airline because of your years and years of stagnation.

Don't agree, never will.

AWA got immediate access to a much better airline, from a strategic point of view, from a revenue point of view, from a leverage point of view, from an equipment point of view---all for "saving" USAir, which is debatable at best.

Relative seniority ignores tangibles and intangibles. Throw in the lack of any kind of fence to adjust for those, and you have a drastically lopsided result which is what led to where they are today.

....and now they gain access to a larger global airline, more global airplanes, a much better contract than they could ever hope to gain as a crap desert outfit; all from a much stronger seniority position. That dog doesn't hunt.

 

[Ocity]

Don't agree, never will.

AWA got immediate access to a much better airline, from a strategic point of view, from a revenue point of view, from a leverage point of view, from an equipment point of view---all for "saving" USAir, which is debatable at best.

Relative seniority ignores tangibles and intangibles. Throw in the lack of any kind of fence to adjust for those, and you have a drastically lopsided result which is what led to where they are today.

Us air was a twice...very nearly THRICE bankrupt airline with absolutely NO future before that drunk idiot Parker decided to go bargain hunting in the basement for garbage. He found it...and the infection spread. You seem to forget about the 1900 furloughed they dragged to the merger...I'll repeat that it was actually, ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY NINE furloughees.

Sorry, but from this outsiders view, the USAPA cheerleaders and voters are nothing but emotional, fratricidal scabs. I will NEVER have any sympathy for those pricks. Ever.

 

[reepicheep]

I guess the Titanic looked bigger and better too.

As it happened though he has a point.....the Airways deal eventually lead to the AA deal & hopefully better days for all concerned.

 

[PuffDriver]

Us air was a twice...very nearly THRICE bankrupt airline with absolutely NO future before that drunk idiot Parker decided to go bargain hunting in the basement for garbage. He found it...and the infection spread. You seem to forget about the 1900 furloughed they dragged to the merger...I'll repeat that it was actually, ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY NINE furloughees.

Sorry, but from this outsiders view, the USAPA cheerleaders and voters are nothing but emotional, fratricidal scabs. I will NEVER have any sympathy for those pricks. Ever.

Who said anything about sympathy? This is about the industry and the precedents that are set. What happens when mesa is combined with AWA. Relative seniority? BTW, those 1900 (which really wasn't 1900) had all been offered recall when the list actually came out. Also, a lot of them had never even left the property, but were flying for a "shell" corporation designed to create a new lower scale of compensation for the industry to accept. Although it never materialized, the concept was never operated outside the scope of the USAir PWA, USAir dispatch authority, nor USAir operating manuals.

Besides that, BK has nothing to do with pilots. It's all about taking advantage of temporarily underprivileged group. Temporary being the active word. Thus, we--as occupation--fail.

How about a possible tangible example: Delta with, say, Alaska. Relative seniority? Two pretty stellar airlines at the moment, quite profitable. Your going to give a senior Alaska pilot access to international 777/747? Do you begin slotting at 737, in effect slotting senior captains in with 90-97 hires? Do you go DOH and fence widebodies off of AK guys for X years?

Whats fair, objectively?

 

[Turtle21]

Whats fair, objectively?

Is it fair that pilot promotions and pay raises are not based on distinctions of skill? Isn't skill a fair way?

I throw out the "skill" question as a red herring. Fact is distinctions of skill don't matter much in this industry (what difference does it make if one pilot gets a 95% on their ATP written and another gets 100%?)

We can't compete to win a better piloting job by promising to fly better than the next guy... So the only way to compete against other pilots is to fly the same for less money...

The whole idea of a union is to prevent pilots from competing/undercutting each other.

DOH is the objective mechanism to keep all pilots unified so that management can't divide them to cut each others throat to fly for less. DOH prevents cannibalistic competition among pilots, but human nature craves a free steak. So yeah DOH is vital to the industry but their are plenty of people that can't resist trying to get something at his neighbor's detriment.