The election - a real discussion

[PositiveRate]

I believe ALPA will win this election.

You will see a near 100% turnout on the West and probably 99% of that for ALPA. We have a call center open that will stay open until it is verified that each and every AWA pilot has voted. The East will have to have a huge turnout, and from what I've been told, apathy in elections has been a problem in the past. If only 75% of your group votes, the number on of ALPA votes needed out East is only about 100-200. These are not exact numbers, but they're in the ballpark, so please don't make this a tit for tat. My point is that these are long odds, and the goals of USAPA are even longer odds and involve voluntarily giving away all of the protections ALPA provides, which will take years and countless assesments for USAPA to even mimic.

I would like to hear from the readers who don't normally post here. We all know the positions of Turtle21, MCDU, BeCareful and Crzipilot. But you RARELY see anyone else associated with the East post.

Could it be that many realize it is extremely unlikely for a list that was final and binding, accepted by ALPA and accepted by the Company to be just tossed by the wayside? Could it be that many realize that seniority is not like a crew meal (a negotiated item) as your USAPA communications guy so laughably put it? Could it be that many realize that the fastest way to a contract and monetary gains is via ALPA and not a 1 man team from USAPA who has basically no contract negotiating experience, but is being sold as your professional negotiator? Could it be that many see this yet another foolish misstep in US Airways history that they would rather not be a part of?

If you signed a USAPA card, which obviously most of you did, will you now VOTE for USAPA in this election and why?

And please, if you can't articulate beyond 'it can't be any worse than it is now', please don't bother posting.

 

[trainer8]

I believe ALPA will win this election.

You will see a near 100% turnout on the West and probably 99% of that for ALPA. We have a call center open that will stay open until it is verified that each and every AWA pilot has voted. The East will have to have a huge turnout, and from what I've been told, apathy in elections has been a problem in the past. If only 75% of your group votes, the number on of ALPA votes needed out East is only about 100-200. These are not exact numbers, but they're in the ballpark, so please don't make this a tit for tat. My point is that these are long odds, and the goals of USAPA are even longer odds and involve voluntarily giving away all of the protections ALPA provides, which will take years and countless assesments for USAPA to even mimic.

I would like to hear from the readers who don't normally post here. We all know the positions of Turtle21, MCDU, BeCareful and Crzipilot. But you RARELY see anyone else associated with the East post.

Could it be that many realize it is extremely unlikely for a list that was final and binding, accepted by ALPA and accepted by the Company to be just tossed by the wayside? Could it be that many realize that seniority is not like a crew meal (a negotiated item) as your USAPA communications guy so laughably put it? Could it be that many realize that the fastest way to a contract and monetary gains is via ALPA and not a 1 man team from USAPA who has basically no contract negotiating experience, but is being sold as your professional negotiator? Could it be that many see this yet another foolish misstep in US Airways history that they would rather not be a part of?

If you signed a USAPA card, which obviously most of you did, will you now VOTE for USAPA in this election and why?

And please, if you can't articulate beyond 'it can't be any worse than it is now', please don't bother posting.

My opinion on the vote first, then your post above.

I think it will go USAPA by thin margins....maybe. The alternative will be ALPA by thin margins.

ALPA on the EAST has basically crapped the bed. The MEC is in turmoil following the Counsel 41 Trusteeship and the resulting mass resignations and defections. Had Prater waited 1 week, the upcoming vote result maybe would be more favoring ALPA. But that move looked like Union thuggery. On the other hand, USAPA's "olive leaf" in PHX was doomed in the first five minutes after the "we had more furloughees than you have total pilots" comment. Not a real effective way of winning friends and influencing people. The rest of the meeting was a waste of time.

My opinion on ALPA: A failure to hold itself accountable, and to follow it's own Code of Ethics, resulting in mistrust from rank and file membership and runaway megalomania at the MEC levels. (I know them personaly and they really love that power.)

My opinion on US Airways: Abraham Lincoln, a very wise man, listened to the wisest of all men, King Solomon (of the Biblical Old Testament for the Biblically illiterate reading this) when he quotes the latter, "a house divide cannot stand." If the pilots of US Airways, et al, are to be successful in their careers at US Airways, they should quickly realize that slinging mud from one end of the country to the other will loose jobs, eventually their own. Standing on the Nicolau award will not work. Voting in USAPA will not work. A pilot group divided will fail. Each can scream epithets at each other, but in the end, BOTH will be equally at fault for the failure.

The only way to make it work is to get together and work it out. Yes, I know about binding arbitration. I also know both pilot groups have to agree to attain a single contract. If we don't agree, we fail. It's that simple.

What it comes down to is who is willing to compromise? Easties, to what they view as a flawed award? Westies, to some kind of fence agreement? Those are rhetorical. I don't expect an answer.

On a side note, in case nobody has noticed, the economy is tanking and there is sure to be some corporate action soon.

Finally, POS, about your plea for East readers to post: I've been reluctant to post on any of the threads here by you, Becketm TWAdude, PHX, etc, except where there is blantant misinformation. Most of the posts I've read disintegrate into name-calling and out and out unprofessionalism---from professional pilots no less. I would just rather debate the merits of the posts, but I usually end up coming away verbally "bloodied" from vitriol on these boards, which, many have come from several AWA pilots like yourself. I've retaliated a few times, but only a few. So, don't expect many participants in your draw for new blood to spill.

Now my questions. You got thrown into a shotgun wedding with unconventional rules and your bride is fat, old and butt ugly. You can't divorce her, and if you kill her, you die, too. What do you want to see happen? Suicide? Do you really believe in reincarnation?

Do you really expect the East pilots to give in on the Nicolau award? It's easy to act like a sixth grader and call names like crybaby, weany, dumbass, etc., but what are you willing to agree to? If nothing, then we're both headed for failure.

I'll tell you what; you keep the conversation civil, I'll stay in. I'm just a lowly FO at the bottom of the list. You or anyone else drives down the Vitriol Rd., I'll jump off and let you soak in your puffery.

T8

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Actually, I do expect the east to abide by the Nicolau award, because that's what mature adults do. They abide by the agreements they make, and we would have done the same here at AWA if the outcome had been different. Pretty simple, really.

 

[Ty Webb]

Seems simple to an outsider

I don't have "a dog in this fight", so it seems pretty simple to me . . . .

1) Combine the lists so everyone is at the same "relative seniority" they were at before said merger

2) Furloughees are recalled as positions come available (that's what their "expectations" were, pre-merger).

3) Put up fences on domiciles, seats and equipment.

4) Free Whiskey on overnights (and beer for the horses)

 

[IronCityBlue]

I don't recall any Easties ever stating what, at a minimum, they would consider acceptable either. Maybe if USAPA doesn't pass then ALPA could adjust the award on a mutually agreeable basis, but of course DOH won't even be close. I agree with the Easties that the award itself was BS, but does anyone really expect the Westies to just kill it and do a "do over" with no guidelines as to how it will turn out before hand? That's kind of like the RJDC/PID movement saying "aw, let's just first agree to merge lists, and then worry about how.

 

[PositiveRate]

Trainer8,

Thanks for the civil post. My intent here is absolutely not to start another fight...I think we've all had enough of that.

I share many of your concerns, particularly, what happens after the election regardless of the outcome. The USAPA guys said that if they lose, they simply go away...I'm not sure I believe that, but if that's true, I think there is a real chance that we could get a contract worked out in short order via ALPA (and yes, that would involve some sort of seniority arrangements or fence agreeable to a majority of West pilots). The USAPA interference has caused more harm to this pilot group than the Nicolau award ever could...they have basically cemented the bad blood...Remember the coast to coast picketing before the award - that was just the beginning of what our unified group could have been, but it's been squandered away. I just hope we can all get past this sooner and not end up like Northwest/Republic where 20 yrs later we're still bitter.


Back to my original post....

The real question I have is, are there any people out there that signed USAPA cards that don't normally chime in here? If so, what are your intentions in voting?

I see voting for USAPA as a huge gamble for limited gain and any senority gain is almost certain to be legally retracted at some point....to me it's like voting FOR war, as well as the fast track to the possibility that we will all lose our jobs sooner than later...not to mention the countless families of non pilot employees who will be adversly affected by our protracted battles. I certainly don't want that.

I want a new contract and I'd like to see us become a pilot group who acts as one to realize the true leverage we have to become a powerhouse in this industry instead of voluntarily infighting for years and securing our place as the joke of the industry. I do not see how USAPA in any way moves us forward. In fact USAPA gaurantees that we will not be one, so how can we not question the motives of any pro USAPA voter? It's hard not to assume that indefinite delay and separate is what they want as a bet that all good in this merger will continue to flow East.

I hope we can continue this discussion civily. Beyond the above points, I think voting USAPA tosses away all that ALPA offers and is ready to offer to help us all move forward. We certainly can fix this together - it is not impossible. It will take some time and lots of money. In the meantime, people will still need solid go-betweens with medical, CP office, FAA, pro stan, HIMMS, benefits issues, legal issues and the list goes on and on. I take it personally that someone is brazen enough to vote that away for themselves while wishing to TAKE that away from me involuntarily. ALPA and compromise are the roads forward in my mind and we may be closer than we think...by voting USAPA, you willfully just throw it away for yourself and for many other unwitting pilots.

--------------------
2 asides....

RE council 41 - union officials using union money and time while supporting a competing representation drive? What should Prater have done? Allow racketeering and look the other way? What about the KKK photos and the parking lot threats in PHL? It sounds like that place has gone completely loco.

and

Making a large portion of our group furlough fodder for many who were furloughed before the merger doesn't pass the smell test and will never happen. So any expectations going forward for compromise need to be realistic. In base compromise for junior guys with high LOS and no furlough time - realistic for example. Putting furloughed before active - not realistic.

Solutions and protections can and will come from ALPA. Empty promises, less protections and a long term/permanent fracture in this pilot group is what USAPA can provide.

 

[trainer8]

Trainer8,

Thanks for the civil post. My intent here is absolutely not to start another fight...I think we've all had enough of that.

I share many of your concerns, particularly, what happens after the election regardless of the outcome. The USAPA guys said that if they lose, they simply go away...I'm not sure I believe that, but if that's true, I think there is a real chance that we could get a contract worked out in short order via ALPA (and yes, that would involve some sort of seniority arrangements or fence agreeable to a majority of West pilots). The USAPA interference has caused more harm to this pilot group than the Nicolau award ever could...they have basically cemented the bad blood...Remember the coast to coast picketing before the award - that was just the beginning of what our unified group could have been, but it's been squandered away. I just hope we can all get past this sooner and not end up like Northwest/Republic where 20 yrs later we're still bitter.


Back to my original post....

The real question I have is, are there any people out there that signed USAPA cards that don't normally chime in here? If so, what are your intentions in voting?

I see voting for USAPA as a huge gamble for limited gain and any senority gain is almost certain to be legally retracted at some point....to me it's like voting FOR war, as well as the fast track to the possibility that we will all lose our jobs sooner than later...not to mention the countless families of non pilot employees who will be adversly affected by our protracted battles. I certainly don't want that.

I want a new contract and I'd like to see us become a pilot group who acts as one to realize the true leverage we have to become a powerhouse in this industry instead of voluntarily infighting for years and securing our place as the joke of the industry. I do not see how USAPA in any way moves us forward. In fact USAPA gaurantees that we will not be one, so how can we not question the motives of any pro USAPA voter? It's hard not to assume that indefinite delay and separate is what they want as a bet that all good in this merger will continue to flow East.

I hope we can continue this discussion civily. Beyond the above points, I think voting USAPA tosses away all that ALPA offers and is ready to offer to help us all move forward. We certainly can fix this together - it is not impossible. It will take some time and lots of money. In the meantime, people will still need solid go-betweens with medical, CP office, FAA, pro stan, HIMMS, benefits issues, legal issues and the list goes on and on. I take it personally that someone is brazen enough to vote that away for themselves while wishing to TAKE that away from me involuntarily. ALPA and compromise are the roads forward in my mind and we may be closer than we think...by voting USAPA, you willfully just throw it away for yourself and for many other unwitting pilots.

--------------------
2 asides....

RE council 41 - union officials using union money and time while supporting a competing representation drive? What should Prater have done? Allow racketeering and look the other way? What about the KKK photos and the parking lot threats in PHL? It sounds like that place has gone completely loco.

and

Making a large portion of our group furlough fodder for many who were furloughed before the merger doesn't pass the smell test and will never happen. So any expectations going forward for compromise need to be realistic. In base compromise for junior guys with high LOS and no furlough time - realistic for example. Putting furloughed before active - not realistic.

Solutions and protections can and will come from ALPA. Empty promises, less protections and a long term/permanent fracture in this pilot group is what USAPA can provide.

So you see, the gulf between is wide. East points west and says, "Enough...no ALPA." West points East and says, "no way, no USAPA." The complexities of a dinosaur airline/legacy carrier and a relatively young airline thrown together with divided sentiments and combined corporate abuse is very difficult. Many have commented on the affects of the Nicoulau award. I find it ironic how there have been three consolidation anouncements since the LCC/AWA merger, yet none consumated. DAL looks like a melt down, Frontier is in significant trouble, United is headed that way and Northwest is feeling the hurt, too, with Continental. The affects of the Nicolau award, in my opinion, have helped quenched those merger aspirations. I've heard that more consolidation is coming. The Nicolau precedent and recent Legislation has pilot groups internally vexed over this issue. At LCC, after April 20 both groups move on with one agent. Will either one sit down and try and work it out? I don't know. I doubt it. My perspective is only up (from the bottom). We call ourselves professionals. We tout our necessity to hold a 4 year credential to meet the minimum requirement to work for the airline, but act like school children when trying to work out a contract. There will have to be compromise.

As for me, I'm out. I turned in my resignation today to the Asst. CP in CLT. I've had enough.

My comments on this thread are now moot...yeah after I said all that. :erm:

I wish you all the best, good luck and tail winds, and I hope you can come to a concensus. I'll comment later, but now, I got some time off and I'm going to enjoy it. :beer:

T8

 

[Bringupthebird]

The civil war (which you referenced in your first post of this thread) has claimed another casualty, and I think we'll miss a rare reasoned opinion.

The vote has come down to a beauty contest between an unfaithful, but familiar wife and a skanky slut who looks nothing like the wife and has already invited her new boyfriend over to look at your (the winner, not "you")house.

In either case, their needs to be major changes if fidelity is your goal. ALPA needs to be the one to offer a clear solution for the future, not just fear and past nostalgia.

Reasonable people will follow leaders who have the courage to do what is right regardless of popularity.

 

[Metrojet]

As to the assumption that there will be 100% turnout on the West......vs a lower turnout on the East - in most elections, voter turnout is higher in most elections when voters feel it is time for a change, and they are unhappy with the current environment.

I believe it will be a very close race.

Metrojet

 

[IronCityBlue]

DAL looks like a melt down, Frontier is in significant trouble, United is headed that way and Northwest is feeling the hurt, too, with Continental.

While I recognize that all airlines are in a touch operating environment right now, that may get tougher, how exactly is Delta "melting down"? Because they are getting more planes than they are parking? Because they may not merge with NWA after all? Fuel is kicking everyone in the jimmies right now, but I wouldn't say anyone is "melting down." Thats some extreme hyperbole IMHO.

Anyway best of luck to you in your future endeavors. Tailwinds all the way!

 

[trainer8]

While I recognize that all airlines are in a touch operating environment right now, that may get tougher, how exactly is Delta "melting down"? Because they are getting more planes than they are parking? Because they may not merge with NWA after all? Fuel is kicking everyone in the jimmies right now, but I wouldn't say anyone is "melting down." Thats some extreme hyperbole IMHO.

Anyway best of luck to you in your future endeavors. Tailwinds all the way!

Yeah...ok...I'll recind that. I was looking at stock prices over the last year. To be fair, LCC is in the same position.

Thanks. You too.....

T8

 

[Bringupthebird]

What percentage is DAL hedged for fuel and at what price. LCC is hedged somewhat, but not nearly as much as they wish. USAPA will help them out.

The Bradford Bonus!

 

[Carl S.]

Count on the worse(USAPA) and hope for the best(NO USAPA). The vote is up to the EAST, the West will be 1650+ ALPA with the rest of the 1770+ AWOL or anti-ALPA abstaining with 10 crazy USAPA votes(Everyone has a crazy relative in the family).
If the Nic. is changed by either party then the system of arbitration will be broken. The new arbitration system will have a phase after the final and binding part that has stood for decades. They can play the slow phase in game for a few years to delay the award, but to alter it would change the whole process. The EAST only keeps on asking for things, not offering anything for them and in the business world that gets you into dead ends.
Parker has accepted the list and to move from that position will expose him to litigation.

 

[MK82Man]

Positive Rate – I agree ALPA will win.

What I would like all ALPA bashers (both inside US Airways and the folks outside our company) to realize is this is NOT about ALPA representation for US Airways. It is about getting rid of the NIC award. If we would have put East and West together and then said as a collective group, we don’t like ALPA and we think we want to go it alone, well then there might have been a chance to be like SWA or AA and have an independent union. We could have had 5500 guys marching to the same drummer. But that isn’t what happened here – East wants something the West doesn’t want. I watched all 8 of the USAPA videos on YouTube this AM. Of course it is the West perspective, but if you ignore the smoke and the repeats, the USAPA guys said some real dumb things. It is really scary to think these guys want to represent all the pilots at US Airways. They have no plan to represent the West pilots and admit in the event of a future merger with an ALPA carrier, Nic could be resurrected. When the West guys asks the USAPA Dude about the implications of a DOH list … less than 300 AWA guys are in the top 3000, it really brings in to focus what these guys are trying to do – AWA on the bottom of the list. USAPA only wants to overturn NIC and provide a cost neutral contract to management as a means to vacate, negotiate away, or fence off the impacts of the Nic Award.

So here you have a new group, USAPA, who seeks to disenfranchise 1800 pilots.

It is a Split S into the ground for US Airways if they win – we will never recover and only management will win. I think most East guys know that. It is real easy to wear a USAPA banner, tell the guy you are flying with how you are going to vote for USAPA etc … but when you are at your kitchen table, with nobody looking over your shoulder, my guess is that 50%+ of the East will vote for ALPA because they recognize that a vote for USAPA is a death sentence for the carrier. Just like Delta rallied to keep Delta, 1800 AWA pilots will be galvanized to the core to do anything but kill USAPA. No new contract for a decade.

So if in the airline industry is really: “all about me”, I think you will see 50% of the East vote for ALPA. As a group, the East has fought the good fight, ethically or not, but now is the time to take care of #1. The East was able to advance 400+ FOs to Captain during the stagnation, but now it is time to move the process forward. They will still get another 100 or so upgraded before a joint contract and so now is a good time to say “we took care of everyone’s hopes and aspirations as best we could.” Now is the time to move forward to a joint contract and ALPA is the only way to make that happen before 2015.

My prediction: ALPA, 2600+ votes, USAPA, less than 1000.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Here is USAPA caught in a lie. Even if they win they are still losers. They removed the video from the USAPA website as damage control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YY4JOeFvXU

 

[Boeing747Driver]

More double talk and lies. Preaching DOH on one hand then worried about relative seniority if West Pilots go east.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwxpm6tqK0

 

[Crzipilot]

boy oh boy....is there pride in these video clips???

 

[Boeing747Driver]

boy oh boy....is there pride in these video clips???

No but a bunch of Truth:beer:

 

[Wiskey Driver]

boy oh boy....is there pride in these video clips???

No what the world saw was one of your self appointed dictators state that no one ever said there was a cost neutral fix by usapa for the company. I think someone forgot to talk to their lawyer which makes the usapa crowd look like liers yet again!!

WD.

 

[PositiveRate]

2nd page of posts now and the normal fights are taking shape. What a waste.

What about all those mid-range East guys who would like a raise? What about the East pilots I've personally encountered who will be voting ALPA and claim there are many many like them who hate the drama and just want to move forward?

MK82man - maybe you're right...maybe it won't even be all that close.

I know our call center won't stop until it's verified that every last West pilot has voted....and there's no suggested donation either.

'Union' life under USAPA will be full of little *astericks* like *suggested donations, *assesments, *lawyers need to be paid, *we expected the company to be accomodating, *lawyers need to be paid, *we didn't expect the West pilots to organize against our strategy, *lawyers need to be paid, *the cost for ____ service is prohibitive due to lack of dues monies, *we're suing the West but need more money to do it, *assesments, *we still believe this out of context language supports are right to ____, contract negotiations are on hold but the *lawyers need to be paid, *seniority is like a crew meal, *we didn't think we needed a plan B, but the *lawyer needs more money to come up with one.

 

[ferlo]

Here is USAPA caught in a lie. Even if they win they are still losers. They removed the video from the USAPA website as damage control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YY4JOeFvXU

This is exactly why they are all considered scabs on the West. Trashing a union contract to steal something from the minority. No different than crossing a picket line.

 

[Crzipilot]

Not sure if I posted it, but I'm leary whenever I see a cut in the middle of a tape. It's been edited. The video came in, in the middle of the conversation, was cut out, and spliced back in. Yes there were cost neutral words in there. But show the whole conversation, was it saying that a reordering of the list would be a cost neutral way for the company to bring labor peace, which would be contained in the contract.

I didn't see the original video, so I don't know what was said etc....

 

[TWA Dude]

Crzpilot:

Though it's been spliced for watchability it's clear there's nothing that could be misinterpreted from being out of context. The whole thing is split into 15 parts now due to Youtube's limitations on length.

Of course, you're mind is already made up so additional facts won't matter. But it may very well matter to the thousands of Easties who don't post on message boards. Won't it be fun to see on April 17 how many yellow-lanyard-wearers voted ALPA?

 

[Crzipilot]

yes it will be fun. and my feeling is there are quite a few that are going to vote ALPA. During LOA 93 voting, there wasn't really anyone that was for that POS. yet it passed by 57%. With this vote, there are many that have voiced their position of being on the fence, and looking at what option is best going to suite them. Not so much, which way is best in the long run or the bigger picture of things (which none of us has crystal balls so we truely don't know which is the best avenue to take)

So your right, there's a good chance of ALPA staying and winning.....but none of us know until the 17th. If they stay, then I think neither side will get a contract for a very very very long time. If it's gone, then those guys better be putting something together to bring the two sides back together. It's obvious going to take a move off the hard liner of the east side towards the middle, and same with the west. Hopefully it can be done. I don't think it can be done with ALPA....

 

[PHXFLYR]

It may happen should ALPA prevail. I can guarentee you it won't happen with USAPA. So if you think that's the answer,you might want to think again.

PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

You say it won't happen???? I don't know. Of course if they come over and shove a list down your throat and say here....your stapled...TS.....of course it won't.

Now if someone was smart and sat down and came up with something else.....something the east snarled at, and something the west snarls at, but both can digest it.....now......would you say it won't work???

 

[PreContact]

Interesting videos from the PHX road show...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Ox95ZttPo&feature=related

 

[fyeo777]

All I can say after watching the PHX roadshow and the USAPA reps is you are about to go down a road with dire consequences for your group by disenfranchising the West Group. I can say for certain as an ALPA member that you are going to find it very difficult to get a jumpseat so prepare your commute accordingly. Of course anyone with an employee number starting with a "P" will always be welcome.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

All I can say after watching the PHX roadshow and the USAPA reps is you are about to go down a road with dire consequences for your group by disenfranchising the West Group. I can say for certain as an ALPA member that you are going to find it very difficult to get a jumpseat so prepare your commute accordingly. Of course anyone with an employee number starting with a "P" will always be welcome.

Well, don't have a dog in this fight, but it does seem like you have a nice "pro-union attitude."

Tell me, "as an ALPA member" do you offer jumpseats to 'SWAPA, APA, NPA, IPA and Teamster' members???? Do you deny jumpseats to pilots who don't belong to a union. Just wondering!

People who use the 'jumpseat' for "politics" or to 'make a statement' are truly A$$holes and make me sick. And, even though I am an ALPA member in good standing, please tell me your name and airline you work for, and I will Gladly NEVER ask you for a jumpseat. Don't want to be on a plane with the likes of you.

For what its worth!

DA

 

[PHXFLYR]

You say it won't happen???? I don't know. Of course if they come over and shove a list down your throat and say here....your stapled...TS.....of course it won't.

Now if someone was smart and sat down and came up with something else.....something the east snarled at, and something the west snarls at, but both can digest it.....now......would you say it won't work???

Problem is no one is smart enough to come up with something. Everytime we sat down with your counterparts from the east,it was they same old tired mantra. Fences with conditions and restrictions so you can capture all the growth that were created at as a result of your attrition with no agreement on how to address the staffing of the growth airplanes that were ordered post-merger. Let me ask you a question. and I guess this is directed more towards the pilots who managed to remain on the property and weren't furloughed like you were. . If this attrition based growth was so important to the east pilot group, where were you guys when we first sat down to hammer out an acceptable merger agreement among ourselves prior to the whole process moving to mediation and ultimatly binding arbitration ? Did you discuss this with your F/O or Capt reps? Bring it up with your Merger Commitee. Or were you still hung up on trying to achieve a DOH intergration to further feather your own nest at our expense? One last thing. If the roles were reversed and it was the America west pilot group asking the USAir pilot group for some relief from the Nicolau award I'm willing to give you a written guareentee that your MEC, along with ALPA national would have been more than happy to have told us to go pound sand...with glee. Sorry. No mulligans.

PHXFLYR