The election - a real discussion

[PositiveRate]

I believe ALPA will win this election.

You will see a near 100% turnout on the West and probably 99% of that for ALPA. We have a call center open that will stay open until it is verified that each and every AWA pilot has voted. The East will have to have a huge turnout, and from what I've been told, apathy in elections has been a problem in the past. If only 75% of your group votes, the number on of ALPA votes needed out East is only about 100-200. These are not exact numbers, but they're in the ballpark, so please don't make this a tit for tat. My point is that these are long odds, and the goals of USAPA are even longer odds and involve voluntarily giving away all of the protections ALPA provides, which will take years and countless assesments for USAPA to even mimic.

I would like to hear from the readers who don't normally post here. We all know the positions of Turtle21, MCDU, BeCareful and Crzipilot. But you RARELY see anyone else associated with the East post.

Could it be that many realize it is extremely unlikely for a list that was final and binding, accepted by ALPA and accepted by the Company to be just tossed by the wayside? Could it be that many realize that seniority is not like a crew meal (a negotiated item) as your USAPA communications guy so laughably put it? Could it be that many realize that the fastest way to a contract and monetary gains is via ALPA and not a 1 man team from USAPA who has basically no contract negotiating experience, but is being sold as your professional negotiator? Could it be that many see this yet another foolish misstep in US Airways history that they would rather not be a part of?

If you signed a USAPA card, which obviously most of you did, will you now VOTE for USAPA in this election and why?

And please, if you can't articulate beyond 'it can't be any worse than it is now', please don't bother posting.

 

[trainer8]

I believe ALPA will win this election.

You will see a near 100% turnout on the West and probably 99% of that for ALPA. We have a call center open that will stay open until it is verified that each and every AWA pilot has voted. The East will have to have a huge turnout, and from what I've been told, apathy in elections has been a problem in the past. If only 75% of your group votes, the number on of ALPA votes needed out East is only about 100-200. These are not exact numbers, but they're in the ballpark, so please don't make this a tit for tat. My point is that these are long odds, and the goals of USAPA are even longer odds and involve voluntarily giving away all of the protections ALPA provides, which will take years and countless assesments for USAPA to even mimic.

I would like to hear from the readers who don't normally post here. We all know the positions of Turtle21, MCDU, BeCareful and Crzipilot. But you RARELY see anyone else associated with the East post.

Could it be that many realize it is extremely unlikely for a list that was final and binding, accepted by ALPA and accepted by the Company to be just tossed by the wayside? Could it be that many realize that seniority is not like a crew meal (a negotiated item) as your USAPA communications guy so laughably put it? Could it be that many realize that the fastest way to a contract and monetary gains is via ALPA and not a 1 man team from USAPA who has basically no contract negotiating experience, but is being sold as your professional negotiator? Could it be that many see this yet another foolish misstep in US Airways history that they would rather not be a part of?

If you signed a USAPA card, which obviously most of you did, will you now VOTE for USAPA in this election and why?

And please, if you can't articulate beyond 'it can't be any worse than it is now', please don't bother posting.

My opinion on the vote first, then your post above.

I think it will go USAPA by thin margins....maybe. The alternative will be ALPA by thin margins.

ALPA on the EAST has basically crapped the bed. The MEC is in turmoil following the Counsel 41 Trusteeship and the resulting mass resignations and defections. Had Prater waited 1 week, the upcoming vote result maybe would be more favoring ALPA. But that move looked like Union thuggery. On the other hand, USAPA's "olive leaf" in PHX was doomed in the first five minutes after the "we had more furloughees than you have total pilots" comment. Not a real effective way of winning friends and influencing people. The rest of the meeting was a waste of time.

My opinion on ALPA: A failure to hold itself accountable, and to follow it's own Code of Ethics, resulting in mistrust from rank and file membership and runaway megalomania at the MEC levels. (I know them personaly and they really love that power.)

My opinion on US Airways: Abraham Lincoln, a very wise man, listened to the wisest of all men, King Solomon (of the Biblical Old Testament for the Biblically illiterate reading this) when he quotes the latter, "a house divide cannot stand." If the pilots of US Airways, et al, are to be successful in their careers at US Airways, they should quickly realize that slinging mud from one end of the country to the other will loose jobs, eventually their own. Standing on the Nicolau award will not work. Voting in USAPA will not work. A pilot group divided will fail. Each can scream epithets at each other, but in the end, BOTH will be equally at fault for the failure.

The only way to make it work is to get together and work it out. Yes, I know about binding arbitration. I also know both pilot groups have to agree to attain a single contract. If we don't agree, we fail. It's that simple.

What it comes down to is who is willing to compromise? Easties, to what they view as a flawed award? Westies, to some kind of fence agreement? Those are rhetorical. I don't expect an answer.

On a side note, in case nobody has noticed, the economy is tanking and there is sure to be some corporate action soon.

Finally, POS, about your plea for East readers to post: I've been reluctant to post on any of the threads here by you, Becketm TWAdude, PHX, etc, except where there is blantant misinformation. Most of the posts I've read disintegrate into name-calling and out and out unprofessionalism---from professional pilots no less. I would just rather debate the merits of the posts, but I usually end up coming away verbally "bloodied" from vitriol on these boards, which, many have come from several AWA pilots like yourself. I've retaliated a few times, but only a few. So, don't expect many participants in your draw for new blood to spill.

Now my questions. You got thrown into a shotgun wedding with unconventional rules and your bride is fat, old and butt ugly. You can't divorce her, and if you kill her, you die, too. What do you want to see happen? Suicide? Do you really believe in reincarnation?

Do you really expect the East pilots to give in on the Nicolau award? It's easy to act like a sixth grader and call names like crybaby, weany, dumbass, etc., but what are you willing to agree to? If nothing, then we're both headed for failure.

I'll tell you what; you keep the conversation civil, I'll stay in. I'm just a lowly FO at the bottom of the list. You or anyone else drives down the Vitriol Rd., I'll jump off and let you soak in your puffery.

T8

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Actually, I do expect the east to abide by the Nicolau award, because that's what mature adults do. They abide by the agreements they make, and we would have done the same here at AWA if the outcome had been different. Pretty simple, really.

 

[Ty Webb]

Seems simple to an outsider

I don't have "a dog in this fight", so it seems pretty simple to me . . . .

1) Combine the lists so everyone is at the same "relative seniority" they were at before said merger

2) Furloughees are recalled as positions come available (that's what their "expectations" were, pre-merger).

3) Put up fences on domiciles, seats and equipment.

4) Free Whiskey on overnights (and beer for the horses)

 

[IronCityBlue]

I don't recall any Easties ever stating what, at a minimum, they would consider acceptable either. Maybe if USAPA doesn't pass then ALPA could adjust the award on a mutually agreeable basis, but of course DOH won't even be close. I agree with the Easties that the award itself was BS, but does anyone really expect the Westies to just kill it and do a "do over" with no guidelines as to how it will turn out before hand? That's kind of like the RJDC/PID movement saying "aw, let's just first agree to merge lists, and then worry about how.

 

[PositiveRate]

Trainer8,

Thanks for the civil post. My intent here is absolutely not to start another fight...I think we've all had enough of that.

I share many of your concerns, particularly, what happens after the election regardless of the outcome. The USAPA guys said that if they lose, they simply go away...I'm not sure I believe that, but if that's true, I think there is a real chance that we could get a contract worked out in short order via ALPA (and yes, that would involve some sort of seniority arrangements or fence agreeable to a majority of West pilots). The USAPA interference has caused more harm to this pilot group than the Nicolau award ever could...they have basically cemented the bad blood...Remember the coast to coast picketing before the award - that was just the beginning of what our unified group could have been, but it's been squandered away. I just hope we can all get past this sooner and not end up like Northwest/Republic where 20 yrs later we're still bitter.


Back to my original post....

The real question I have is, are there any people out there that signed USAPA cards that don't normally chime in here? If so, what are your intentions in voting?

I see voting for USAPA as a huge gamble for limited gain and any senority gain is almost certain to be legally retracted at some point....to me it's like voting FOR war, as well as the fast track to the possibility that we will all lose our jobs sooner than later...not to mention the countless families of non pilot employees who will be adversly affected by our protracted battles. I certainly don't want that.

I want a new contract and I'd like to see us become a pilot group who acts as one to realize the true leverage we have to become a powerhouse in this industry instead of voluntarily infighting for years and securing our place as the joke of the industry. I do not see how USAPA in any way moves us forward. In fact USAPA gaurantees that we will not be one, so how can we not question the motives of any pro USAPA voter? It's hard not to assume that indefinite delay and separate is what they want as a bet that all good in this merger will continue to flow East.

I hope we can continue this discussion civily. Beyond the above points, I think voting USAPA tosses away all that ALPA offers and is ready to offer to help us all move forward. We certainly can fix this together - it is not impossible. It will take some time and lots of money. In the meantime, people will still need solid go-betweens with medical, CP office, FAA, pro stan, HIMMS, benefits issues, legal issues and the list goes on and on. I take it personally that someone is brazen enough to vote that away for themselves while wishing to TAKE that away from me involuntarily. ALPA and compromise are the roads forward in my mind and we may be closer than we think...by voting USAPA, you willfully just throw it away for yourself and for many other unwitting pilots.

--------------------
2 asides....

RE council 41 - union officials using union money and time while supporting a competing representation drive? What should Prater have done? Allow racketeering and look the other way? What about the KKK photos and the parking lot threats in PHL? It sounds like that place has gone completely loco.

and

Making a large portion of our group furlough fodder for many who were furloughed before the merger doesn't pass the smell test and will never happen. So any expectations going forward for compromise need to be realistic. In base compromise for junior guys with high LOS and no furlough time - realistic for example. Putting furloughed before active - not realistic.

Solutions and protections can and will come from ALPA. Empty promises, less protections and a long term/permanent fracture in this pilot group is what USAPA can provide.

 

[trainer8]

Trainer8,

Thanks for the civil post. My intent here is absolutely not to start another fight...I think we've all had enough of that.

I share many of your concerns, particularly, what happens after the election regardless of the outcome. The USAPA guys said that if they lose, they simply go away...I'm not sure I believe that, but if that's true, I think there is a real chance that we could get a contract worked out in short order via ALPA (and yes, that would involve some sort of seniority arrangements or fence agreeable to a majority of West pilots). The USAPA interference has caused more harm to this pilot group than the Nicolau award ever could...they have basically cemented the bad blood...Remember the coast to coast picketing before the award - that was just the beginning of what our unified group could have been, but it's been squandered away. I just hope we can all get past this sooner and not end up like Northwest/Republic where 20 yrs later we're still bitter.


Back to my original post....

The real question I have is, are there any people out there that signed USAPA cards that don't normally chime in here? If so, what are your intentions in voting?

I see voting for USAPA as a huge gamble for limited gain and any senority gain is almost certain to be legally retracted at some point....to me it's like voting FOR war, as well as the fast track to the possibility that we will all lose our jobs sooner than later...not to mention the countless families of non pilot employees who will be adversly affected by our protracted battles. I certainly don't want that.

I want a new contract and I'd like to see us become a pilot group who acts as one to realize the true leverage we have to become a powerhouse in this industry instead of voluntarily infighting for years and securing our place as the joke of the industry. I do not see how USAPA in any way moves us forward. In fact USAPA gaurantees that we will not be one, so how can we not question the motives of any pro USAPA voter? It's hard not to assume that indefinite delay and separate is what they want as a bet that all good in this merger will continue to flow East.

I hope we can continue this discussion civily. Beyond the above points, I think voting USAPA tosses away all that ALPA offers and is ready to offer to help us all move forward. We certainly can fix this together - it is not impossible. It will take some time and lots of money. In the meantime, people will still need solid go-betweens with medical, CP office, FAA, pro stan, HIMMS, benefits issues, legal issues and the list goes on and on. I take it personally that someone is brazen enough to vote that away for themselves while wishing to TAKE that away from me involuntarily. ALPA and compromise are the roads forward in my mind and we may be closer than we think...by voting USAPA, you willfully just throw it away for yourself and for many other unwitting pilots.

--------------------
2 asides....

RE council 41 - union officials using union money and time while supporting a competing representation drive? What should Prater have done? Allow racketeering and look the other way? What about the KKK photos and the parking lot threats in PHL? It sounds like that place has gone completely loco.

and

Making a large portion of our group furlough fodder for many who were furloughed before the merger doesn't pass the smell test and will never happen. So any expectations going forward for compromise need to be realistic. In base compromise for junior guys with high LOS and no furlough time - realistic for example. Putting furloughed before active - not realistic.

Solutions and protections can and will come from ALPA. Empty promises, less protections and a long term/permanent fracture in this pilot group is what USAPA can provide.

So you see, the gulf between is wide. East points west and says, "Enough...no ALPA." West points East and says, "no way, no USAPA." The complexities of a dinosaur airline/legacy carrier and a relatively young airline thrown together with divided sentiments and combined corporate abuse is very difficult. Many have commented on the affects of the Nicoulau award. I find it ironic how there have been three consolidation anouncements since the LCC/AWA merger, yet none consumated. DAL looks like a melt down, Frontier is in significant trouble, United is headed that way and Northwest is feeling the hurt, too, with Continental. The affects of the Nicolau award, in my opinion, have helped quenched those merger aspirations. I've heard that more consolidation is coming. The Nicolau precedent and recent Legislation has pilot groups internally vexed over this issue. At LCC, after April 20 both groups move on with one agent. Will either one sit down and try and work it out? I don't know. I doubt it. My perspective is only up (from the bottom). We call ourselves professionals. We tout our necessity to hold a 4 year credential to meet the minimum requirement to work for the airline, but act like school children when trying to work out a contract. There will have to be compromise.

As for me, I'm out. I turned in my resignation today to the Asst. CP in CLT. I've had enough.

My comments on this thread are now moot...yeah after I said all that. :erm:

I wish you all the best, good luck and tail winds, and I hope you can come to a concensus. I'll comment later, but now, I got some time off and I'm going to enjoy it. :beer:

T8

 

[Bringupthebird]

The civil war (which you referenced in your first post of this thread) has claimed another casualty, and I think we'll miss a rare reasoned opinion.

The vote has come down to a beauty contest between an unfaithful, but familiar wife and a skanky slut who looks nothing like the wife and has already invited her new boyfriend over to look at your (the winner, not "you")house.

In either case, their needs to be major changes if fidelity is your goal. ALPA needs to be the one to offer a clear solution for the future, not just fear and past nostalgia.

Reasonable people will follow leaders who have the courage to do what is right regardless of popularity.

 

[Metrojet]

As to the assumption that there will be 100% turnout on the West......vs a lower turnout on the East - in most elections, voter turnout is higher in most elections when voters feel it is time for a change, and they are unhappy with the current environment.

I believe it will be a very close race.

Metrojet

 

[IronCityBlue]

DAL looks like a melt down, Frontier is in significant trouble, United is headed that way and Northwest is feeling the hurt, too, with Continental.

While I recognize that all airlines are in a touch operating environment right now, that may get tougher, how exactly is Delta "melting down"? Because they are getting more planes than they are parking? Because they may not merge with NWA after all? Fuel is kicking everyone in the jimmies right now, but I wouldn't say anyone is "melting down." Thats some extreme hyperbole IMHO.

Anyway best of luck to you in your future endeavors. Tailwinds all the way!