The Delta vote

[Linedriver]

Here is some elementary information to consider before voting.

The average MBA can graduate and expect to recieve a median compensation package of $94,500 annual. That equates to $48 hourly for a standard work week. $48 an hour. Ok. (5th year compensation is around $124,000)

I try to get 80 hours of pay each month, which hardly ever happens anymore, and that takes me away from my family and home approximately 280 hours. I know that isn't exactly the same but if I'm not home, I'm working.

6th year MD88 compensation, as of this new contract, is approximately $133,000. This includes the 15% into retirement. That equates to $39.50 an hour for my investment of time.

Even if this contract is approved we still are not making what a 24 year old MBA makes. Not to mention the responsibility, missed birthdays, holidays, cookouts, life events, etc. that we endure. These things have value.

At first I was leaning towards voting yes but the more I look at this the more I see how dreadful this industry has become.

We are a commodity - just like fuel. Airlines don't get a break on fuel just because they think it costs too much.

Just something to think about.

 

[jynxyjericho]

passage will be about 80% with 14% voting nay and 6% not taking the time to vote at all.

 

[pilotyip]

Here is some elementary information to consider before voting.

The average MBA can graduate and expect to recieve a median compensation package of $94,500 annual. That equates to $48 hourly for a standard work week. $48 an hour. Ok. (5th year compensation is around $124,000)

I try to get 80 hours of pay each month, which hardly ever happens anymore, and that takes me away from my family and home approximately 280 hours. I know that isn't exactly the same but if I'm not home, I'm working.

6th year MD88 compensation, as of this new contract, is approximately $133,000. This includes the 15% into retirement. That equates to $39.50 an hour for my investment of time.

Even if this contract is approved we still are not making what a 24 year old MBA makes. Not to mention the responsibility, missed birthdays, holidays, cookouts, life events, etc. that we endure. These things have value.

At first I was leaning towards voting yes but the more I look at this the more I see how dreadful this industry has become.

We are a commodity - just like fuel. Airlines don't get a break on fuel just because they think it costs too much.

Just something to think about.

You should become a MBA then, write a GMAT of 600-650 get into the good school and the world will be yours. The beauty of being a pilot is when you set the braking brake you do not to think about the job until the next flightm even if it is 4 weeks away. A MBA never escapes their job, it is always there something else to be done, a project unfinished, a new crisis. That is why I got out of busines and came back to flying, that way my free time is my time, not the comapnies.
BTW: I think average MBA salary is from a top school, not your on-line get your MBA school.

 

[redflyer65]

Or better yet, do BOTH.

What birthdays?

 

[Mookie]

You should become a MBA then, write a GMAT of 600-650 get into the good school and the world will be yours. The beauty of being a pilot is when you set the braking brake you do not to think about the job until the next flightm even if it is 4 weeks away. A MBA never escapes their job, it is always there something else to be done, a project unfinished, a new crisis. That is why I got out of busines and came back to flying, that way my free time is my time, not the comapnies.
BTW: I think average MBA salary is from a top school, not your on-line get your MBA school.

100% true

 

[JumpersAway]

Not fueling the fire, but I'm curious how current this figure is. I'd bet this is a bit exadurated in today's market. My Fiance' has an MBA, a law degree, and makes 52k as a practicing attourney. After seeing how much she works, there's no way I'd subject myself to that way of life. I'll take my airplane, thank you : )

 

[fam62c]

passage will be about 80% with 14% voting nay and 6% not taking the time to vote at all.

And 100% of the pilots will say they voted NO after it passes

 

[GogglesPisano]

You don't get what's fair. You don't get what you or anyone else thinks you're worth. You get what you negotiate.

The question is this: Which of the following scenarios is more beneficial to the Delta pilot group ...

1) We vote yes and get fewer RJ's, more mainline flying, improved JV scope and a 20% raise over the next 2.5 yrs at which point we will be the highest-paid pilots in the country, barring improvements at SWA/FDX/UPS. Before that point we will enter negotiations for our next contract.

2) We vote no and send the negotiators back. We may get a better deal (the record since 9-11 is spotty here.) We may wind up in mediation (average 29 months -- how are our peers doing?) We may go to arbitration and get this deal two and a half years from now.

It's poker.

To be honest I'm back on the fence after spending last week leaning towards a yes vote. The pay increase is abysmal. No reason we should wait 2.5 years. But I wasn't at the table, the NC was and they seem to think this is the best we'll get.

 

[Hamfighter]

I WILL vote no.
But, I'm not going to stress myself for what I can't control (that's why I left the business world.)
If we vote the contract down, I hope we get more money and fewer RJ's. That is my preference. If that works out, great. If we spend years trying, worst case I miss some of a lousy raise.
If the TA passes, it's a shame, but it's a slight raise, ratio of RJ's decrease (I know, I know), and we start negotiating again in two and a half years.
Again, I'm voting NO, and all my sixth year FO friends say they're doing the same.
I fully expected Southwest money, and I am disappointed, but I'm glad to be at Delta. I'd be glad to be at Southwest, too (not starting that argument).

 

[BrickTop]

If you're willing to work hard have aptitude and reasonable intelligence, open a side business to afford the income you want. The market will determine your worth as an "employee" You'll never become rich, working for someone else and you can't strongarm your way to self-weighted equality.

 

[Jar Jar]

Except that you actually end up with MORE rjs in 2020 than if u keep scope status quo.

 

[Linedriver]

You should become a MBA then, write a GMAT of 600-650 get into the good school and the world will be yours. The beauty of being a pilot is when you set the braking brake you do not to think about the job until the next flightm even if it is 4 weeks away. A MBA never escapes their job, it is always there something else to be done, a project unfinished, a new crisis. That is why I got out of busines and came back to flying, that way my free time is my time, not the comapnies.
BTW: I think average MBA salary is from a top school, not your on-line get your MBA school.

I have an MBA.

I googled MBA salaries for 2011 grads. The figure was a median income expectation.

My point is that if you consider your investment of time, money and education you might be better off going to medical/law school or obtaining a graduate degree. Really depends on the individual. I enjoy flying but the compensation package is not comensurate with the overall investment - and we have some influence here.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Except that you actually end up with MORE rjs in 2020 than if u keep scope status quo.

That is patently and unequivocally false. Have you read the Notepad on scope?

 

[pilotyip]

I have an MBA.

I googled MBA salaries for 2011 grads. The figure was a median income expectation.

My point is that if you consider your investment of time, money and education you might be better off going to medical/law school or obtaining a graduate degree. Really depends on the individual. I enjoy flying but the compensation package is not comensurate with the overall investment - and we have some influence here.

Then you have made the right choice if you like to fly, I know I did.

 

[xkuzme1]

The MBA employee wouldn't voluntarily sell out his job to someone with a Bachelor of Arts because the work was beneath him to work on such a small account. He would realize that lots of small accounts turn into large profits, more flexibility of schedule, and more job security.

 

[General Lee]

Here is some elementary information to consider before voting.

The average MBA can graduate and expect to recieve a median compensation package of $94,500 annual. That equates to $48 hourly for a standard work week. $48 an hour. Ok. (5th year compensation is around $124,000)

I try to get 80 hours of pay each month, which hardly ever happens anymore, and that takes me away from my family and home approximately 280 hours. I know that isn't exactly the same but if I'm not home, I'm working.

6th year MD88 compensation, as of this new contract, is approximately $133,000. This includes the 15% into retirement. That equates to $39.50 an hour for my investment of time.

Even if this contract is approved we still are not making what a 24 year old MBA makes. Not to mention the responsibility, missed birthdays, holidays, cookouts, life events, etc. that we endure. These things have value.

At first I was leaning towards voting yes but the more I look at this the more I see how dreadful this industry has become.

We are a commodity - just like fuel. Airlines don't get a break on fuel just because they think it costs too much.

Just something to think about.

Pilotyip is right, go get an MBA and go work for a hedge fund. The problem we face today is none of our peers have made ANY gains in the last 8 years. None. We would like to compare ourselves with FedEx and UPS, but the NMB has said NO to that (in a personal meeting with our MEC a year ago). That doesn't mean we have to accept anything they throw at us, but this TA did have some good points.

First off, it's duration is for 3 years. Our current contract was for 4 years, and we now have a TA 7 months early. Why is that? Nobody knows (except maybe ALPA, who can't say what is going on because of signed agreements). Is that a carrot? Maybe, but unless you know exactly what may or may not happen, you have zero leverage, because the CEO probably has different plans on how the vote comes out. These people aren't stupid.

Second, the pay is good for a 3 year deal. Almost 20%. Normally we would have started negotiating at the amendable date (Dec 31st of this year) and then continued for about 2 years. Instead, we will have an extra 20% in pay by then, and ready to exchange new openers soon after. Other parts of the TA are good too, like better sick leave, training pay, vacation pay, per diem, etc. Not huge gains, but better.

Third, scope. Scope is a huge issue with RJs and 777s flown by other airlines in play. The TA reduced the total number of RJs, which is huge. Some of the 50 seaters may have been leaving anyway, but many also had long lease agreements still entact. It makes economic sense to upgrade some of those planes to planes that can do better at certain markets. Then tie the 717s to any additional 76 seaters, and keep DCI at a ratio of domestic flying that finally favors mainline, that is better. Not every contract has had an increase for DCI, the joint contract with DL/NW is an example, but this one starts to point the DCI dominance in the other direction, which is better. Throw in tighter scope for INTL code shares and Joint Ventures, and tightening of domestic code shares like with Alaska Airlines, it's just a no brainer.

Overall, it's not perfect, but thanks to zero help from our peers and nothing more than a guess to what our management's next move is, this actually looks pretty good. Mostly gains, short contract length, almost 20% in 3 years, and tighter scope overall.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BID]

Delta's TA doesn't help United fight off bigger regional jets. No help from peers there.

 

[nimtz]

Pilotyip is right, go get an MBA and go work for a hedge fund. The problem we face today is none of our peers have made ANY gains in the last 8 years. None. We would like to compare ourselves with FedEx and UPS, but the NMB has said NO to that (in a personal meeting with our MEC a year ago). That doesn't mean we have to accept anything they throw at us, but this TA did have some good points.

First off, it's duration is for 3 years. Our current contract was for 4 years, and we now have a TA 7 months early. Why is that? Nobody knows (except maybe ALPA, who can't say what is going on because of signed agreements). Is that a carrot? Maybe, but unless you know exactly what may or may not happen, you have zero leverage, because the CEO probably has different plans on how the vote comes out. These people aren't stupid.

Second, the pay is good for a 3 year deal. Almost 20%. Normally we would have started negotiating at the amendable date (Dec 31st of this year) and then continued for about 2 years. Instead, we will have an extra 20% in pay by then, and ready to exchange new openers soon after. Other parts of the TA are good too, like better sick leave, training pay, vacation pay, per diem, etc. Not huge gains, but better.

Third, scope. Scope is a huge issue with RJs and 777s flown by other airlines in play. The TA reduced the total number of RJs, which is huge. Some of the 50 seaters may have been leaving anyway, but many also had long lease agreements still entact. It makes economic sense to upgrade some of those planes to planes that can do better at certain markets. Then tie the 717s to any additional 76 seaters, and keep DCI at a ratio of domestic flying that finally favors mainline, that is better. Not every contract has had an increase for DCI, the joint contract with DL/NW is an example, but this one starts to point the DCI dominance in the other direction, which is better. Throw in tighter scope for INTL code shares and Joint Ventures, and tightening of domestic code shares like with Alaska Airlines, it's just a no brainer.

Overall, it's not perfect, but thanks to zero help from our peers and nothing more than a guess to what our management's next move is, this actually looks pretty good. Mostly gains, short contract length, almost 20% in 3 years, and tighter scope overall.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Nice to see you can be bought General. Did you dunk your head in the ALPA roadshow koolaid punch bowl? Make no mistake adding 70+ seaters is R E L I E F. Anybody who sees this as facilitating the parking of 50 seaters is either fooling themselves or just freaking clueless. The 50's and any 'lease agreements' will always be the company's problem not the pilot group's.

I find it funny that I increasingly see DAL YES voters blaming Unical for making no progress at the negotiating table. The only offer our illustrious CEO has given us is current DAL+$1. Would you have preferred we took that?!? Btw that got the h*ll no because nobody wanted to take the bend over DAL scope. Heaven forbid we try to prevent growth of the large RJ's that caused thousands to get furloughed. Silly Unical pilots!

And make no mistake DAL ALPA did NOTHING to get this TA. This is all management's doing which should make you heavily skeptical right away. Lee Moak's boys would have done no better with Sismek and McDonald on the other side of the table.

Thanks for completely cutting the knees off the Unical scope stance. Congratulations Joe Merchants of the world! Not only we you right that GL would sell out, but you get to fly big jets indefinitely from now on.

 

[General Lee]

Delta's TA doesn't help United fight off bigger regional jets. No help from peers there.

Did you expect Dalpa to go back and recapture every current 76 seater flying for DL? Currently there are 153 of the 76 seaters flying for Delta? That would have been very very expensive, and zero pay raises would have been managements probable offer, maybe a pay cut to pay for that. UAL already had 70 seaters flying through FCAL hubs, something CAL pilots said couldn't happen. Well, it did. UAL has a large RJ problem just like most legacies do. Maybe the best course of action would be to get a cap on numbers, and then get a ratio for improvements on current domestic flying, mainline vs United Express. That would be a great start for getting that issue under control. Right now, they can't even get their MECs together without huge disagreements. They have a long way to go.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nice to see you can be bought General. Did you dunk your head in the ALPA roadshow koolaid punch bowl? Make no mistake adding 70+ seaters is R E L I E F. Anybody who sees this as facilitating the parking of 50 seaters is either fooling themselves or just freaking clueless. The 50's and any 'lease agreements' will always be the company's problem not the pilot group's.

I find it funny that I increasingly see DAL YES voters blaming Unical for making no progress at the negotiating table. The only offer our illustrious CEO has given us is current DAL+$1. Would you have preferred we took that?!? Btw that got the h*ll no because nobody wanted to take the bend over DAL scope. Heaven forbid we try to prevent growth of the large RJ's that caused thousands to get furloughed. Silly Unical pilots!

And make no mistake DAL ALPA did NOTHING to get this TA. This is all management's doing which should make you heavily skeptical right away. Lee Moak's boys would have done no better with Sismek and McDonald on the other side of the table.

Thanks for completely cutting the knees off the Unical scope stance. Congratulations Joe Merchants of the world! Not only we you right that GL would sell out, but you get to fly big jets indefinitely from now on.

Get your own problems fixed between your groups, and then help with pattern bargaining. Your MECs can't get it together. One does one thing, with the other finally agreeing after its pressured to do so. Ridiculous, and thanks to your infighting, Dalpa has zero leverage with NMB mediation if it goes that route. That is partly YOUR fault. Get it together, and then you can start the blame game. Your pay is far away lower than our proposal, and you have worse scope overall. Yes, you don't have 76 seaters, but you have plenty of 70 seaters, which still cover for your parked UAL 737-300s. You also have Dash8-400s that allowed for 737-500 parkings at CAL in EWR. Colgan now will just transfer those planes to Republic, still covering for those parked planes. How many Dash-8-400s can you guys have? Unlimited. Those apparently were guppy killers.

I hope you do get DL + $1 for your pay and tighten up your scope. Your combined contracts are horrible, and it will cost your management a ton to bring them up to ours with this TA. No wonder your management seems to be stalling. Good luck with that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SLUF4]

The pay in this TA is the least of my worries...I'm a no

 

[General Lee]

The pay in this TA is the least of my worries...I'm a no

You need to hit a roadshow first and understand this TA.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BID]

There was probably a good argument when Delta sold scope a couple of years ago? Hey, it's just a couple of 76 seat aircraft. Only 6 more than a 70 seat jet!

All I know is if Delta signs off on this there will be a lot of 90 seat aircraft (configured to 76) flying out there. Our United CEO wants this. If he offers us your contract I will vote no. I just can't imagine allowing such big jets being out sourced. No thanks.

This TA is complicated and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it If there is a lesson I am seeing here, it is to not allow bigger jets in the first place. You can't recapture any of it and the company will find ways to entice and buy bigger regional aircraft.

$$$

 

[Speedtape]

No pilot group can negotiate the United contract except the UAL/CO pilots.

 

[nimtz]

You know what GL I always gave you the benefit of the doubt unlike many others around here. Your sad attempt to legitamize our petty MEC fighting as an excuse for DAL ALPA to open 70+ seat scope says it all. I hope/pray the majority of DAL pilots are smarter then you. Again congrats for being right ASA lifers and to GL enjoy the carrot you hypocrite!

 

[180ToTheMarker]

You need to hit a roadshow first and understand this TA.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I've hit two of them. Ask the reps hard questions and they dance around the answer. That scares me. Either our own reps don't know the TA that well or they are hiding something. I'm a "no"

 

[Rebound]

There are several aspects to this TA that I do not like. The key factors leading me towards a yes vote are: I have not read or heard of any viable alternatives whoes potential gains outweigh the inherent risks. If I believe in the current negotiating process, this should be the most we were able to get out of the company at this particular window of time.
If 3 1/2 years from now we are still profitable, we need to hit up the company for more. If the economy tanks, we'll be glad we locked in what we did. I am trying not to base my vote on what I feel we should get rather what we are able to negotiate.

 

[jtf]

What happens to scope in bankruptcy? Say you have the max 76 seaters on property and then some hiccup along with 14 billion in underfunded pensions sets off bankruptcy. The scope gets tossed almost instantly to allow all to stay and to stay at 76 seats. Then quite possibly the 717 leases get terminated. Maybe some more paycuts to go along with a further reduction in scope since there is a clear history that the mainline pilots don't want to fly anything smaller than a 717- you've got the rates in writing, but never flew them.

I have no idea what the end game is, but this just seems too easy to not have an unseen catch- not that giving away that many larger airplanes isn't a huge catch.

 

[Tanker Clown]

I like Genitals "no help" comment. SWA has ZERO RJs and still makes more than Song. genitals was going to do back flips over whatever came out. He's demonstrated how big of a sucker he is. How'd those pay cuts treat ya? Keep ya out of bankruptcy?

Whatever GL does, you guys would be wise to do the opposite.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Anyone ever heard of Ford & Harrison, where your head of HR is from? duh?

You guys at Delta need to:

STOP listening to road shows

STOP reading Negotiater's Notepad and other memos

STOP taking your reps answers as fact.

(...and it should go without saying STOP listening to Kool-Aid from management and their concurrent scare tactics via media press releases about how everything hinges on the pilots)

Why???? The bottom line is they can put anything they want in a "notepad" or memo and tell you anything they want (and it may not even be malicious from reps, they likely have just been drinking the Kool-Aid)...and NONE of that matters a bit!

WHAT matters then? What is specifically WRITTEN in the *SIGNED contract*! Stop complaining about "legalese" and just READ what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in your native language...I assure you, you can do this, and it is the ONLY thing that can be used for or against you, NOT a "Notepad" or hearsay.

The whole time, think? "Why is this passage vague?" or "Why does this not specify this?" "or prevent THAT?" Is this written in a way they can mess with us in even NEW ways?"

They pay this law firm MILLIONS to keep the same millions from the pilots. They have a playbook (read "Confessions of a Union Buster") and without fail pilot unions fall for the exact same tricks, over and over.

WHY is there such a rush (on the management's end)? WHY is your union SO accomodating to them? They hold all the cards, yet STILL run scared. When does "next time" become THIS time?

You all need to FORCE your union to FIGHT them (they WILL win if they are strong)...and by all means STOP FALLING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS by dividing up into DPA and N vs S! That is EXACTLY what they want... they want you to be divided on this TA...they win EITHER way...PILOTS, however, can only win ONE way: Sticking together with the union you have, throw the Management Buddies TO THE CURB *NOW* and get smart RADICAL people in there who realize the power of what? 10 to 12,000 PILOTS that the airline NEEDS! My GAHD if you don't have leverage NOW, WHEN do you?????

Get rid of the Kool-Aid Drinking, management LOVING double agent members of the MEC you have NOW and get the experienced FIGHTERS in there NOW in your *CURRENT UNION*! There is nothing better to them to have a divided and WEAKER union.

The whole industry is watching, if your own personal losses aren't enough motivation. Bottom line, "YES" to this embarassment equals NO WIN for pilots there and elsewhere, NO + fighters=ONLY UP!


ETA--- After googling "Ford & Harrison" (if you are sadly unfamiliar), also Google "Airlines for America" and look at the board. Management of ALL these airlines are working TOGETHER tp play ALL of you airline pilots against each other and divide and conquer in unison. Thought that was obvious but reading here makes me wonder.