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The culture of the managment determines the safety level

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Yip and Reality,

I am not aware of any non-scheduled operation that obeys the 135 rest regulations with prospective rest.

In fact 50, 135 companies sued the FAA when the FAA announced they were going to enforce prospective rest.

see http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/aug99/99-1888.01a.html
United States Court of Appeals
For the First Circuit

No. 99-1888 AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,
Petitioner,
v.
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,
Respondent.

ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

Before
Selya, Boudin and Lynch,
Circuit Judges.
John M. Edwards with whom John C. Blessington and Kirkpatrick & Lockhart LLP were on brief for petitioner. Charles W. Scarborough, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, with whom David W. Ogden, Acting Assistant Attorney General, and Robert S. Greenspan, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, were on brief for respondent.




BOUDIN, Circuit Judge. Petitioner, Aviators for Safe and Fairer Regulation, Inc. ("Aviators"), is a trade association of about fifty on-demand air charter companies. It brings this case to challenge a so-called notice of enforcement policy issued by the Federal Aviation Administration ("FAA") that purports to interpret, and to express its intent to enforce, a preexisting regulation governing how much rest pilots or other flight crewmembers must get between flight assignments.
Air charter companies furnish "air taxi" service to customers on demand rather than on a scheduled basis. The FAA regulates such companies under Part 135 of its regulations, 14 C.F.R. pt. 135 (2000). The regulation at issue in this case, id. � 135.267(d), was adopted in its current form in October 1985 and aims to ensure that pilots have adequate rest for purposes of air safety, see 49 U.S.C. �� 40101(d), 44701(a)(4)-(5) (1994 & Supp. II 1996). It states, in relevant part, that each flight assignment to unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews "must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment." 14 C.F.R. � 135.267(d).
The term "rest" is not defined in the regulation. On several occasions, the FAA sought to refine the term through rulemaking but those efforts were abortive. (1) Then, on June 15, 1999, without prior notice or rulemaking proceedings, the FAA issued a "notice of enforcement policy." The notice said that it was merely reiterating the FAA's "longstanding interpretation of its regulations" concerning rest requirements and continued in pertinent part:
[T]he FAA has consistently interpreted the term rest to mean that a flight crewmember is free from actual work from the air carrier or from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. Thus the FAA previously has determined that a flight crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the flight crewmember had a present responsibility for work in that the flight crewmember had to be available for the carrier to notify of a flight assignment.
In my experience, Operations called you in and you had to answer the phone nearly 24/7. You never knew when your duty period would be or when your rest would be or when it began or when it ended....
 
Gun,

I see what you're getting at. But I wasn't referencing prospective rest. Just the fact that when your rest period is over, if you don't feel you should fly, for whatever reason, management will set the tone about such matters.

Will it be an NJA sort of response, where you call in and tell them you aren't able to fly (for whatever reason), and they back you up? Or will it be like my other example where they yell at you and coerce you with implied threats ("Do you know how many resumes we have on file of people ready and willing to do these flights?")?

Of course, it's always up to the PIC to make the safest decision. But maybe it's not so easy to find the boundaries of the safety envelope when you are being pressured from management ("Well, maybe I'm not so tired that I couldn't fly just a couple more legs. That way, I keep my job and everyone's happy."). Rationalizing becomes much easier when management pushes you.

My point being, it's not always so straightforward for the PIC to make the right decision when management doesn't set a good tone towards safety.
 
What is done, or what was done is ... You get called out after 10 hrs or so of "Rest" that you did not know prospectively when it was going to end ....

You fly 135 trips for 14 hours, drop off your freight or pax ... now you're done. Its time to go to the hotel right?

Wrong... We need the plane back at home plate for the next crew. Ferry it back 91 for 5 hrs to Pittsburgh. You can do it. Its 91!

That's what some operations want to be able to do. Yep pilots will do it because they want to keep their jobs....

This is why B19 hates unions. They cause "over staffing" by protecting people who don't want to fly for 20 hrs in one day :).
 
My point being, it's not always so straightforward for the PIC to make the right decision when management doesn't set a good tone towards safety.

then he should'nt be PIC. I've had this same crap tried on me before. I told them to go show me the resumes of all those that are willing to violate the regs and be unsafe. I won that discussion.

I understand what you are saying though, but if it's clearly a safety issue then the PIC needs to treat it as such. The only way management will change their BS attitudes is to have more pilots stop worrying about their jobs and start worrying about being safe.

How often do you hear of hospital management questioning the decisions that a surgeon makes?
 
The question has never been "Rest". he beer rule applies, if you can not have a beer, you are not in rest. A 135 crewmember who is given 10 hours of rest is legally rested. The question is duty. I do not believe "Duty" has ever been addressed.
 
Tail end ferry

Wrong... We need the plane back at home plate for the next crew. Ferry it back 91 for 5 hrs to Pittsburgh. You can do it. Its 91! .
What if the crew wants to do a tail end ferry, much rather spent the night at KLRD than MMIO. Tailends were the option of the crew, if they wanted to do it it was up to them. If they went to bed, then they would be full legal and would most likely be held at the rest location for another trip.
 
What if the crew wants to do a tail end ferry, much rather spent the night at KLRD than MMIO. Tailends were the option of the crew, if they wanted to do it it was up to them. If they went to bed, then they would be full legal and would most likely be held at the rest location for another trip.


that is correct....if they wanna ferry home it is up to them. BUt most dirtbag 135 operators pressure them. That is why OFF is off and ON is on.

If you at home waiting for the phone to ring then you are not OFF.....but they all do that cause they fear for their job. Which is BS.
 
We have numerous pilots at NJA who came from the regionals. The horror stories they all tell about being pressured from management because, hey, "we've done everything required by the regs, and we don't care if you claim to still be tired or that the plane is unsafe.".

The problem is that these guys are taking that regional mentality over here. They have the idea that our fatigue policy, sick policy etc are "too good to be true" and don't use them. I don't know if it's pride or disbelief or what.
I wish they'd "get it" and start using the policies we have. I've used the policies as needed and never, ever, even gotten a nudge of push from the co. If I'm tired, I'm tired. If I'm sick, I'm sick. Either way I don't push it like I did before I knew better.
I think this is why we keep getting these 3 leg days on first and last day of tours, which used to be just travel and maybe a ferry. But I am seeing more of these:

0805 show
1005-1215 airline / gnd
1445-1600 flight with 7 pax and a dog
1700-1805 ferry
1905-1950 pax flight
Then the "autoshutdown" to keep the OT at one quarter. 10 hour turn. Repeat as directed.

More and more guys I see in the FBOs are seeing it, and complaining that they're not too excited about it, but not ready to call the F bomb on day one....everyone just says "oh well". We have these policies so use them. NJA will not take away your birthday. Just use it when you need to.
 
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