The Arbitration

[becket]

Regardless of the backpack wearing junior AWA FO's rants, it's wrong to staple 1800 pilots to the bottom of the list. The fences should have been longer and the furloughees should have been slotted in.

slot in unemployed pilots? are you crazy. What can you really expect from a company whom you only worked for for two years and have been furloughed for almost six? time to move on.

 

[A350]

iflyhi:

I was hired in 89 and never furloughed until 2003. As I said, smarter guys than me are going to have to figure this out....so I don't have an answer to your question other than to say as it is written now, it disadvantages the AAA pilots for the duration of their careers.

The fact that you have FO's retiring still provides upward mobility....and puts you closer to the upgrade. You still will get the upgrade, and if it takes a year or two longer, you still get it. The way it stands now, I lose the widebody position and never recover it. And many NEVER upgrade even though absent this list, they would have finished out their careers on a high note.

Green:

The staple you say that would have happened had the AAA proposal gone through would not be a "staple" if there were conditions and restrictions placed on bidding going forward.....this is a staple for the east furloughees and there are NO restrictions. The 4 year fence is a farce. Further with age 65 coming, there is no fence at all.

Looking at my situation, is it reasonable to end up 780 numbers down the list at retirement and to lose things that were in my expectation forever, not just a delay?

Further, your comment about the AWA guys flying 747's......when did you get rid of them? That means anyone hired after that had no expectation of flying anything like that. And your assertion about that weakens your claim that a U guy had no expectations because of what MIGHT have happened.

A350

 

[iflyhigh]

A350:

You know that you can't save every pilot, next to impossible. I also don't advocate selling out the juniors guys either.

So why did your MEC not try to find something other than years of service? When I was furloughed from UAL, I was told, if a merger or buyout happens, and you are not on property you have no rights. The pilot group would try and protect you, but you are not here and don't have a say.

Why did they MEC not try and protect those furloughes, and unforunately, let the late 90's guys go......At least the senior guys, in the last 10 or less years of their career, (possible five more years now) on furlough would have been protected....

I know the this solution would of stank for the late 90's guys, but like I said, can't protect every guy not on the property.

Your MEC had to figure that the Arbitrator was not going to put 20 year fences in, like Republic got. That has turned out to be a mess.

Again, how far down the list do you want to protect, everyone??????

 

[Green]

A350:

You know that you can't save every pilot, next to impossible. I also don't advocate selling out the juniors guys either.

So why did your MEC not try to find something other than years of service? When I was furloughed from UAL, I was told, if a merger or buyout happens, and you are not on property you have no rights. The pilot group would try and protect you, but you are not here and don't have a say.


Your MEC had to figure that the Arbitrator was not going to put 20 year fences in, like Republic got. That has turned out to be a mess.

Again, how far down the list do you want to protect, everyone??????

Of course they did...The bottom line for AAA was to put several hundred Furloughed pilots senior to the MAJORITY of AWA captains, with conditions and restrictions that were all but a joke. That just goes to show how unreasonable the AAA expectations were. Now they fully expect Alpa National to throw aside the Constitution and by Laws and abrogate the award.

Regardless of how anybody feels about the award can you possibly imagine what throwing it out would do to Alpa National? If Prater makes a precendent of ignoring our union's constitution by throwing out a year of arbitration hearings and the resulting Binding Arbitration where does that leave us as a union? Will any future seniority arbitration ever stick if all you have to do is make a huge stink and picket national? What happens if they throw it out and the next arbitrator doesn't appreciate Prater's arrogance and gives AAA a worse deal? We would be going down a slippery path into the unknown. Seems crazy to risk our entire union to appease a group of PHL radicals.

 

[JT8D]

This merger (as expected) will NEVER WORK. Most of them don't and this one is worse than most.

If you know chemistry you know that oil and water will not solve with each other...you can stir... backward, forward, faster...doesn't make a difference...the two substances are so diametrically opposite to each other that they will not blend...not even a little bit for a short time...

Lots of people had raised eyebrows when this "merger" was made public. Most in the know said "WHAT?...How is that ever going to work?...It was sort of like billy bobs dime store buying KMART with billy bob saying "don't you folks worry none...everythangs gonna be alright... I runs my own store."

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I have a question for the AAA pilots out there. That means the AAA pilots: not Whiskey, HP, + rate, TWA dude, Grog or
Ed

Ed, can I post yet???:laugh:

 

[Fast43]

and yes, above awa junior FO's. What was there career expection going to be in an almost certain AWA bankruptcy without the merger?

Maybe you could Illuminate for us exactly what your career expectations at AAA were without this merger.

Our rumored "looming banckruptcy" does not carry the carreer ending promise that Liquidation does.

Liquidation.............could this be the Massive Attrition AAA guys are talking about??

 

[Fast43]

A350
The 4 year fence is a farce. Further with age 65 coming, there is no fence at all.


"Kinda Wrecks your rapid attrition claim as well"


A350
Looking at my situation, is it reasonable to end up 780 numbers down the list at retirement and to lose things that were in my expectation forever, not just a delay?



"Snap out of it...You weren't going to ever see them anyway, without the merger you would have had Liquidation. Ending up 780 numbers farther down the list at retirement seems like a decent alternative" However that is looking at it in a positive way, why is it you east guys can't see the positive side of still having a job in a career that a whole Flippin lot of people would love to have.

I guess its hard to see that when your doing overtime counting all the things you feel were owed and lost or should have had etc. You guys could prolly write a good country song.

 

[737 Pylt]

Ed, can I post yet???:laugh:

NO! You should be on the corner of 44th st. now going about your "handyman business!":laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Heard you and hpilot were getting a "float" ready for the parade!:blush:

737

 

[EdTeachLives!]

Yes Whiskey.....I got my answer for the most part. I am still wondering how the arbitrator put an unfurloughed '87 hire(s) behind a Cactus '03 hire if the facts are right?

I get the part about the furloughed guys and their placement. I don't get the decision on AAA's retirement numbers as it seems they don't capture the attrition they bring evenly.

Ed

 

[Hpilot]

NO! You should be on the corner of 44th st. now going about your "handyman business!":laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Heard you and hpilot were getting a "float" ready for the parade!:blush:

737

737 were you in Atlanta yesterday? I noticed a Delta pilot with a gay pride sticker on his flight bag, wearing a pink aviator scarf.

 

[A350]

Fast:

Again, this is your assumption about the future of U.....and we all know what assumptions get you.

A350

 

[PositiveRate]

Ed,

The main arguments for the outstanding questions you have are that...

1) The 1987 and 2003 hires remain at their same relative positions on the list before and after the merger. The real unfortunate part is a guy who was hired 20 yrs ago and never furloughed was only a junior FO out East before the merger. I definitely empathize with that being a $hitty situation, but ALPA merger policy is not DOH or LOS, it's relative seniority - that's why it ended up the way it did.

2) RE the attrition issue - the West argument on that is, pre-merger US Airways was headed for liquidation and no less. They were a shinking and arguably a dying airline, so the grand expectations of attrition that are touted here were re-born after the merger. The whole goal is to maintain or improve pre-merger expectations.

Again, I personally empathize with the fact that things are better now and the East might feel like they are being boxed out of something they brought to the table...but empathy doesn't shadow the reality, though, which is that things have improved out East as a result of the merger...this is why the arbitrator put the list together as he did.

Another important note is that the West has been almost entirely reasonable with our proposals for a relative seniority integration - beyond initial rumblings, we never called for a staple or demanded anything unworkable or unfair. On the other hand, the East has been hardline from the beginning with their DOH expectations and even when flat out told by the arbitrator that it would not go that way, did not waiver from that position - a position that would have furloughed pilots slotted above active pilots for years to come and effectively stapled the majority of our pilot group to the bottom of the list. We're not sure if it was arrogance or stupidity that allowed a sincere belief that DOH was a reasonable proposal, but the result should not be surprising.

The time has passed for being reasonable, though. All the proposals regarding fences, base protections, capturing East growth vs. West growth, etc. are moot...the opportunity to present those ideas was before we went into binding arbitration. They had many chances to negotiate and/or propose what is now touted as a "realistic solution" to the problem PRIOR to agreeing to BINDING arbitration. IMO the East should be livid with their leadership for expecting and selling an unworkable solution to the integration.

The list will stand, but the real problem now is that a mutual unwillingness to work together will delay indefinitely a contract that both sides have earned and deserve.

Thanks for flying the "new" US Airways.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Ed, can I post yet???:laugh:

NO!!!!!

Phxflyr

 

[U2FDX]

I'm sorry but if you are a 1989 USAir hire and you're sitting on furlough waiting for that big day when you get recalled and haven't gone out and gotten a better job, you deserve what you got.

And that's what you get for not paying attention to this F'ed up business for the past 18 years! TC

You cant be serious when you type this crap are you ????

 

[PHXFLYR]

Ed,

The main arguments for the outstanding questions you have are that...

1) The 1987 and 2003 hires remain at their same relative positions on the list before and after the merger. The real unfortunate part is a guy who was hired 20 yrs ago and never furloughed was only a junior FO out East before the merger. I definitely empathize with that being a $hitty situation, but ALPA merger policy is not DOH or LOS, it's relative seniority - that's why it ended up the way it did.

2) RE the attrition issue - the West argument on that is, pre-merger US Airways was headed for liquidation and no less. They were a shinking and arguably a dying airline, so the grand expectations of attrition that are touted here were re-born after the merger. The whole goal is to maintain or improve pre-merger expectations.

Again, I personally empathize with the fact that things are better now and the East might feel like they are being boxed out of something they brought to the table...but empathy doesn't shadow the reality, though, which is that things have improved out East as a result of the merger...this is why the arbitrator put the list together as he did.

Another important note is that the West has been almost entirely reasonable with our proposals for a relative seniority integration - beyond initial rumblings, we never called for a staple or demanded anything unworkable or unfair. On the other hand, the East has been hardline from the beginning with their DOH expectations and even when flat out told by the arbitrator that it would not go that way, did not waiver from that position - a position that would have furloughed pilots slotted above active pilots for years to come and effectively stapled the majority of our pilot group to the bottom of the list. We're not sure if it was arrogance or stupidity that allowed a sincere belief that DOH was a reasonable proposal, but the result should not be surprising.

The time has passed for being reasonable, though. All the proposals regarding fences, base protections, capturing East growth vs. West growth, etc. are moot...the opportunity to present those ideas was before we went into binding arbitration. They had many chances to negotiate and/or propose what is now touted as a "realistic solution" to the problem PRIOR to agreeing to BINDING arbitration. IMO the East should be livid with their leadership for expecting and selling an unworkable solution to the integration.

The list will stand, but the real problem now is that a mutual unwillingness to work together will delay indefinitely a contract that both sides have earned and deserve.

Thanks for flying the "new" US Airways.

Very nice re-cap. The really sad part in all of this is that the AAA Merger Comittee couldn't have found a group of pilots more willing to hammer something out at the table without the need for mediation or binding arbitration than their counterparts at AWA. It's really unfortunate they refused to back away from their DOH stance. Maybe things would have been more to their liking if they had.Now we will never know.


PHXFLYR

 

[MK82Man]

For all those predicting doom and gloom at the new US Airways, I disagree.

ALPA will smooth the waters with the East MEC, but the list won't change. Prater will work the East side to get the list to management so “he can help” move us both forward to a better contract. Politically, he'd love a contract that really moves US Airways forward. The top 500 East Coast Captains really want a new contract. Expect them to politic to move the process forward. Every month that passes that they are on the LOA contract costs them really big dollars. For the short run, 2-4 years, nothing will really change. Don't expect a big movement of folks from West to East and vice versa. For the East guys that want to come West ... come on, and you'll get a friendly reception. This is the new US Airways with the spirit of AWA out West. What they are doing out East ... it is up to them. If all the East guys get a 20% pay raise, minimum, better work rules, and continued recalls, they will move forward.

They will never forget, but time heals all or you are just miserable in life and it eats you up as a person. If you can’t let it go, find a different profession, life is too short to be miserable in a job for 10-20 years. When both groups make more money, we continue to have 100M dollar quarter profits, and stock options/bonus checks roll in, then the waters smooth over pretty fast. We are on the verge of new equipment and have the application in for China. If we bring 330/340 metal to the West, then both sides are flying large equipment and there is less "movement" across the domiciles. With new hires coming on the bottom to the 190 (assuming the East Furloughees don't want it) that will help to level out the animosity as well. I'm optimistic and you'll find that spirit out West. Every West pilot is committed to the success of the new US Airways. We want the East guys to share the same commitment. Come back to the picket line with us and come back to the joint contract talks. The longer the East stalls the joint contract the harder the feelings cement. Expect Prater to not let that happen. He and ALPA need a better contract for US Airways to show that his watch is a success ... otherwise he is just a worthless dude like the last guy. Age 60/65 has half of all pilots split, Prater needs an industry leading contract for US Airways to spring all pilot groups forward now that we are all making money. He can’t let US Airways implode by setting aside the list. If the East guys don’t move forward soon, the West pilots will open Section 6 and negotiate our own new contract. I’m sure we’ve told the East guys that. Don’t make the same mistake and stick to DOH/De-certify ALPA/NO to Joint Contract Talks – that would push us to Section 6 and you will be stuck on your contract till 31 Dec 2009 (and add 18 months to that before it gets implemented).

Sure the water is a little rough now, but give us 3/6 months and see where we are with a 150M second and third quarter profits – it isn’t going to be as bad as everyone suggests. We’ll get through it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

A buddy of mine who was hired by Piedmont in July of 1987 (never furloughed) was placed behind a HP 2003 hire.

That kind of blows, I think.

It doesn't really blow until the 2003 guy upgrades ahead of the 1987 guy which might require either one of them to uproot themselves and finance their own move. Until then, it's a lot of blood pressure raised over a meaningless number.

Why not see how it all plays out before burning down the house?

 

[sgmick]

For all those predicting doom and gloom at the new US Airways, I disagree.

ALPA will smooth the waters with the East MEC, but the list won't change. Prater will work the East side to get the list to management so “he can help” move us both forward to a better contract. Politically, he'd love a contract that really moves US Airways forward. The top 500 East Coast Captains really want a new contract. Expect them to politic to move the process forward. Every month that passes that they are on the LOA contract costs them really big dollars. For the short run, 2-4 years, nothing will really change. Don't expect a big movement of folks from West to East and vice versa. For the East guys that want to come West ... come on, and you'll get a friendly reception. This is the new US Airways with the spirit of AWA out West. What they are doing out East ... it is up to them. If all the East guys get a 20% pay raise, minimum, better work rules, and continued recalls, they will move forward.

They will never forget, but time heals all or you are just miserable in life and it eats you up as a person. If you can’t let it go, find a different profession, life is too short to be miserable in a job for 10-20 years. When both groups make more money, we continue to have 100M dollar quarter profits, and stock options/bonus checks roll in, then the waters smooth over pretty fast. We are on the verge of new equipment and have the application in for China. If we bring 330/340 metal to the West, then both sides are flying large equipment and there is less "movement" across the domiciles. With new hires coming on the bottom to the 190 (assuming the East Furloughees don't want it) that will help to level out the animosity as well. I'm optimistic and you'll find that spirit out West. Every West pilot is committed to the success of the new US Airways. We want the East guys to share the same commitment. Come back to the picket line with us and come back to the joint contract talks. The longer the East stalls the joint contract the harder the feelings cement. Expect Prater to not let that happen. He and ALPA need a better contract for US Airways to show that his watch is a success ... otherwise he is just a worthless dude like the last guy. Age 60/65 has half of all pilots split, Prater needs an industry leading contract for US Airways to spring all pilot groups forward now that we are all making money. He can’t let US Airways implode by setting aside the list. If the East guys don’t move forward soon, the West pilots will open Section 6 and negotiate our own new contract. I’m sure we’ve told the East guys that. Don’t make the same mistake and stick to DOH/De-certify ALPA/NO to Joint Contract Talks – that would push us to Section 6 and you will be stuck on your contract till 31 Dec 2009 (and add 18 months to that before it gets implemented).

Sure the water is a little rough now, but give us 3/6 months and see where we are with a 150M second and third quarter profits – it isn’t going to be as bad as everyone suggests. We’ll get through it.

That is easy for someone to say that just got 2000 (or more) bodies stapled below him.

"Lets make nice so I can hurry and get a raise, then we will ALL be happY. WE will get through this" Some will just be better off than others, yourself included Im guessing.

Negotiate on your own all you want skipper. It wont be that easy...

Your right, there are rough waters ahead.

jmho....

 

[get2flyin]

MK82Man, you're dreaming. Not that I don't disagree with some of what you say and not that I don't want to agree with the rest, but the guys like "sgmick" on the East side will do their best to muck up the works with all of their collective might. That's the funny thing about entitlement. It's one wound time will never heal. The bottom 1/2 of the ACTIVE guys will always be pissed whenever an AWA guy upgrades into any current equipment or a Captain cross bids into something larger. The INACTIVE guys will just be pissed at everyone and will spend the rest of their careers trying to get the CAs to write up trivial crap, push off the gates late, taxi on 3 engines, and fly around at .72 out of spite because they blame the world for their misfortune. Maybe the top 1/2 of the AAA guys will try and make something happen to make a little money before they retire (at 65, no doubt). I don't blame them for trying their hardest to get DOH. If they represented me, I'd have thrown them out if they asked for less. The sad thing is, game over man. They strutted up to the poker table, tried to bluff, and lost. You can't change the rules after the cards are on the table.

I can't imagine all the AWA FO's are eyeballing the East CA vacancies and I can't imagine all of the AAA guys are drooling over the West seats. Who knows. Only time will tell.
JMHO.

 

[ironspud]

You cant be serious when you type this crap are you ????

He's not only serious. He's "been there" - and far worse than most of these "East" folks. There is a giant ALPA screw rammed up his.., well you know,....and he still retains a sense of humor.

 

[PHXFLYR]

737 were you in Atlanta yesterday? I noticed a Delta pilot with a gay pride sticker on his flight bag, wearing a pink aviator scarf.

Nah..that was the General.He got the pink scarf on his last Milan overnight



PHXFLYR

 

[ironspud]

Nah..that was the General.He got the pink scarf on his last Milan overnight



PHXFLYR

Milan. Eh? Makes him easy to trace now. Expect a picture soon.

 

[737 Pylt]

Milan. Eh? Makes him easy to trace now. Expect a picture soon.

What would you know about Milan? Stick to ICN and your 20 day trips!

737

 

[TWA Dude]

The TWA/AMR deal was similar to this staple job,...

Where's the similarity? About 2/3 of the activeTWA pilots were stapled by the APA. Nicolau stapled zero active USAirways pilots.

... however the TWA pilots were unfortunately dealing with a different union.

That's right; there was essentially no negotiation, just "let's humor them" talks. HP and AAA negotiatiated, mediated, and arbitrated. If you can think of a more fair process I'm all ears. (And no, DOH/LOS is a method, not a process.)

 

[aa73]

737 were you in Atlanta yesterday? I noticed a Delta pilot with a gay pride sticker on his flight bag, wearing a pink aviator scarf.

Yeah, that was him. You missed the other sticker that read, "I'm Bi, I like men AND boys."

All in good fun, 737pylut! 73

 

[ALGFLYR]

Where's the similarity? About 2/3 of the activeTWA pilots were stapled by the APA. Nicolau stapled zero active USAirways pilots.

Not true. There were about 300 ACTIVE AAA pilots working on the 170 that were stapled... But the arbitrator used the wrong list...

 

[GOTAFLY]

Not true. There were about 300 ACTIVE AAA pilots working on the 170 that were stapled... But the arbitrator used the wrong list...

On the mainline list the MDA guys were on there as fur. That is the list that was used. MDA had its own sen. list.

 

[TWA Dude]

Not true. There were about 300 ACTIVE AAA pilots working on the 170 that were stapled... But the arbitrator used the wrong list...

I realize the basis of your disagreement is whether the MDA division was a mainline operation or not. Nicolau ruled that they were not.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Well, the way I look at it, every pilot at MDA was on the mainline list. They paid dues to the AAA chapter of ALPA. My ALPA card said "AAA - Active". An MDA pilot was elected to the MEC (PHL S/T). How can a non-active, non-AAA pilot be part of the AAA MEC??