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The ALPA brand scope debate

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Rhoid said:
Surplus, serious question here. Just how would you expect ALPA to fairly represent both parties? It seems to me to be an insurmountable conflict of interest. And typically like most orginizations, the group with the most money wins. It seems to me that until regional pilots can get elected to ALPA's board of directors that the regionals will be playing second fiddle to the wishes of mainline.
I don't want to seem facetious but how ALPA goes about complying with the law, which requires it to represent fairly the interests of every member, is ALPA's problem.

Naturally, it really isn't as simple as that but it can be done. As the old fashioned saying goes .... "where there's a will there's a way." At present there is no will in ALPA to represent fairly because those that haven't been fairly represented have never demanded it. Instead they have tried to be "nice" and curry favor from those that take advantage of them. When you can't get fair and honest representation from your union, you go to court and demand it. It's the law, not an option.

Yes there are conflicts of interest but I do not agree they are insurmountable. No conflict is insurmountable when the parties involved wish to resolve the conflict. When they refuse to compromise what you have is the equivalent of civil war.

When a conflict exists it is ALPA's responsibility, under the law, to act impartially and take action to resolve the conflict. ALPA has the legal power to do that but has made no serious attempt. Instead, ALPA has chosen sides and always in favor of the same element. Why is that? Because ALPA's structure is that of an oligarchy and the few that run the show always decide in favor of themselves.

You're a little "off" in that regional pilots are already elected to ALPA's Board of Directors. That's not the problem. However, in my opinion, the problem is centered in the ALPA's organizational structure and parts of its Constitution.
Unfortunately, that is not by accident it is by design. The people with the power have carefully designed a sytem that guarantess they will keep that power; all of it at every level.

Lawsuits cannot force the ALPA to change its organizational structure for a union is free to organize itself internally as it sees fit. However, when the failure to represent fairly results in frequent and sucessful litigation against ALPA, change will either take place or the ALPA will be put out of business.

The danger with that strategy is the obvious. If the "big five" don't get their way, then it is they that will leave the ALPA as the pilots of at least one of them frequently threaten to do. That however is more easily said than done. Especially when the structural changes necessary to resolve conflicts and hold the union together is much more in their best interests than going off on their own would be.

The present system approaches a pure democracy where the "majority" rules by fiat and the minority is unprotected. That is why it is essentially dysfunctional. I would prefer a more Republican form of governance (like the US Govt.) where the small airlines (states) are guaranteed a voice and a vote that matters.

In my dream system the office of the President would be the "Executive Branch", the Executive Council a modified equivalent of the Judicial Branch, the Executive Board equivalent of the Senate and the BOD the equivalent of the House. Those changes would give everyone a meaningful voice in the union's affairs, whereas the present sytem merely guarantees that the "big five" calls all the shots on everything and can "out vote" all the other 38 members combined.

My idea would not result in a "regional takeover" of the union (that would not work any better than the current debacle), but it would certainly prevent the total domination that the big majors currently enjoy and the smaller airlines would have a meaningful voice. When noone has total power, the "fairness" of representation expands exponentially.

I'd go so far as to guess that a system like I suggest would result in airlines like SWA, AirTran, UPS, HOR, SKYW, CHQ, joining ALPA and AA coming back. We will never get American to return as long as it can be dictated to by UAL, DAL and NWA. Carriers like SWA, and the others I mentioned will never join ALPA to be told what to do by the same 3 - 5 airlines, as in UAL,DAL,NWA, CAL, FDX and USA, etc.

I don't expect this to happen anytime soon, maybe never. Nevertheless, the conflicts that exist today could be worked out if National ALPA simply requires those in conflict to reslove their differences before it will approve their contracts. ALPA has the power to do that now, but ALPA's leadership does not have the courage to try.

The President of ALPA will not risk losing his large salary by going against the NWA MEC to resolve a conflict with MSA and PCL. He won't do it to resolve a conflict between DAL and CMR and ASA. He did not do it to resolve a conflict between USA and PDT/ALG/PSA. He will never stand in the way of what UAL wants to do, to protect AWAC, ACA, or TSA. He will not take on the APA to protect EGL and he'll always defend AWA, USA or UAL, before he considers MES. However, if a conflict arose between DAL and UAL you can bet he'd bend over backwards in an effort to smooth it over and would be extremely careful to maintain an impartial approach. He knows all too well which side his bread is buttered on and that is why he will side with any major against any regional at any time, without regard for what is fair or just.

When all of the member airlines in ALPA were similar we still had conflicts. Why do you think American is no longer in ALPA? You can't solve all of the conflicts all of the time but today we don't even make the effort when a small airline has a conflict with a large airline. That's why the present system does not fulfill the ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation.

We should not have to sue to obtain our rights but apparently the current administration of the ALPA leaves little choice. Either we give up our rights or we litigate in the effort to defend them. That doesn't strike me as the best way to solve our problems. It certainly is now way to run something called a "union".
 
And the Humanitarian Award Goes to, hey, where'd he go?

General Lee said:
Maybe you guys need to start your own union if you don't like ALPA. You guys seem to like ALPA when you need strike benefits.....


But I do like YOU. And I liked your support so much that I wanted to thank you personally but I couldn't find you. Oh, thats right, you lived out of town and even though you worked for an airline and regularly operated through our only two hubs at the time, you were just so darn busy.
 
But I do like YOU. And I liked your support so much that I wanted to thank you personally but I couldn't find you. Oh, thats right, you lived out of town and even though you worked for an airline and regularly operated through our only two hubs at the time, you were just so darn busy.
Oh Brother, not another one with the "you did nothing for me while on strike attitude." It gets old, and this is why there is so much animosity between CMR/DAL pilots!
 
I'm not the one that brought it up for the umpteenth time, pile-lot. You don't hear me bringing up the assessment issue, yet again, as if somehow we waived our right to dissent because we accepted strike benefits. It wasn't for lack of effort that some Delta pilots tried to axe our strike pay. I paid my assessments for Eastern and Continental but you don't hear me squealing, 'you owe me.'

But look at the strike for what it was: when it was expedient to put pressure on Delta management, there are reports some (but not Gee Lee, he lived out of town) joined us on the line. But when you got your industry killing er, leading contract, the stampede was off to the bank. Self serving, not selfless. Big difference.

That some choose to stand up to an assault on our jobs while confounding to you, sure isn't to us. Sorry if your little feelings get all hurt. Have a nice day.
 
FlyComAirJets said:
I'm not the one that brought it up for the umpteenth time, pile-lot. You don't hear me bringing up the assessment issue, yet again, as if somehow we waived our right to dissent because we accepted strike benefits. It wasn't for lack of effort that some Delta pilots tried to axe our strike pay. I paid my assessments for Eastern and Continental but you don't hear me squealing, 'you owe me.'

But look at the strike for what it was: when it was expedient to put pressure on Delta management, there are reports some (but not Gee Lee, he lived out of town) joined us on the line. But when you got your industry killing er, leading contract, the stampede was off to the bank. Self serving, not selfless. Big difference.

That some choose to stand up to an assault on our jobs while confounding to you, sure isn't to us. Sorry if your little feelings get all hurt. Have a nice day.
Con Air Jets:
My feelings aren't hurt. You are the baby crying about nobody helping you because they lived out of town.
737
and again, because of people like this, there will always be bad feelings between CMR/DAL pilots
 
You do the cryin', we'll do the flyin'

Uh, you seem to be the one with the predilection for name calling my little one. Time for your nap now, remember how cranky you get if you don't.
 
Flycomairjets,


Just because I wasn't in CVG walking the line with you doesn't mean I didn't support you. I did, and I thought you were going to win, I really did. Support can be doled out in various forms, unlike the lack of support for any of our furloughs from you guys, until this last Summer, when Lawson floated an idea 3 years too late to Comair management. You still can't get around that, no matter how hard you try. We gave you money and support (like all ALPA carriers) and you gave our guys in NEED NOTHING--NADA, ZILCH. Your average pilots didn't raise their voices, either, which is the worst part. And, to make you look even worse, your sister airline, ASA, did offer our people help.


There will always be a rift between our groups unfortunately. We did as much as we legally could to support you during your strike (while being watched by the Bush Administration----after Bush saying "there will be no Major airline strikes this Summer...."), and you WANTED SOMETHING IN RETURN for helping our pilots in need. The truth hurts, for you.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
CMR pilot at his finest!

FlyComAirJets said:
Uh, you seem to be the one with the predilection for name calling my little one. Time for your nap now, remember how cranky you get if you don't.
Um.... Let's see. You started the name calling on this thread my bleeding rhoid. Now, back under that rock, you know what happens when the troll police find you out in the daylight!
737
 
Last edited:
The truth? You can't handle the truth!

General Lee said:
Just because I wasn't in CVG walking the line with you doesn't mean I didn't support you. I did, and I thought you were going to win, I really did. Support can be doled out in various forms, unlike the lack of support for any of our furloughs from you guys, until this last Summer, when Lawson floated an idea 3 years too late to Comair management. You still can't get around that, no matter how hard you try. We gave you money and support (like all ALPA carriers) and you gave our guys in NEED NOTHING--NADA, ZILCH. Your average pilots didn't raise their voices, either, which is the worst part. And, to make you look even worse, your sister airline, ASA, did offer our people help.


There will always be a rift between our groups unfortunately. We did as much as we legally could to support you during your strike (while being watched by the Bush Administration----after Bush saying "there will be no Major airline strikes this Summer...."), and you WANTED SOMETHING IN RETURN for helping our pilots in need. The truth hurts, for you.....
Great, can I use the same line of thought as you?

Let's see, it took your MEC over a year to find his way into our MEC's office and only after he was directed by his own members. (Sounds like nothing--nada, zilch in the effort department there by the DALPA MEC) And then when he encountered some quid pro quid he leaves in a huff and never returns. (Sounds like more nothing on the DALPA MEC's part) Meanwhile, the furlough schedule is pushed back from a couple years to, what 2008 or 2009? Every furloughee could have easily been absorbed by the hiring at the DCI carriers, every one. The PID would have ensured that. What has the Delta MEC done, oh yes, 3+ years after 9/11 and there is "preferential hiring" on as yet undelivered aircraft. Pretty darn close to zero in that department.

And then you say that we have given nothing? I, along with other Comair pilots, have personally contributed to the Delta Pilot Furlough Relief Fund, I posted that to you years ago and you know it.

As for your Bush quote, that is incredible. Where did you get that? I do not remember that although it really is quite funny in true Bush fashion to note that both our companies were released late in the Winter and our strike spanned the Spring. Summer had nothing to do with it.
 
General Lee said:
Flycomairjets,


Just because I wasn't in CVG walking the line with you doesn't mean I didn't support you. I did, and I thought you were going to win, I really did. Support can be doled out in various forms, unlike the lack of support for any of our furloughs from you guys, until this last Summer, when Lawson floated an idea 3 years too late to Comair management. You still can't get around that, no matter how hard you try. We gave you money and support (like all ALPA carriers) and you gave our guys in NEED NOTHING--NADA, ZILCH. Your average pilots didn't raise their voices, either, which is the worst part. And, to make you look even worse, your sister airline, ASA, did offer our people help.


There will always be a rift between our groups unfortunately. We did as much as we legally could to support you during your strike (while being watched by the Bush Administration----after Bush saying "there will be no Major airline strikes this Summer...."), and you WANTED SOMETHING IN RETURN for helping our pilots in need. The truth hurts, for you.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
Gen, Gen, Gen... Oh come on. As long as you spread these lies, people like me will dispute them. ASA's MEC did absolutly nothing for your pilots. Their mgt. agreed to hire them WITHOUT the MEC's input. Your MEC chair came to our MEC nad DEMANDED we go spend capital for YOUR pilots. OUR MEC's ONLY job is to represent OUR PILOTS. NOT YOURS.

So like they should, because your MEC had worked so hard to limit OUR flying and limit OUR airplanes, OUR MEC took the opportunity to try and get some thing for OUR PILOTS. YOUR pilots were on furlough, OUR pilots career had been seriously affected in a negative way because of YOUR MEC's actions.

Get the facts straight Gen.

And as far as your support, the assesment was mandatory. It is a cost of belonging to a Union. We assesed our selves because ALPA Nat. had pulled the plug, but that is another story in itself.

Get over it Gen.
 
AFELLOWAVIATOR said:
Gen, Gen, Gen... Oh come on. As long as you spread these lies, people like me will dispute them. ASA's MEC did absolutly nothing for your pilots. Their mgt. agreed to hire them WITHOUT the MEC's input. Your MEC chair came to our MEC nad DEMANDED we go spend capital for YOUR pilots. OUR MEC's ONLY job is to represent OUR PILOTS. NOT YOURS.

Get the facts straight Gen.

And as far as your support, the assesment was mandatory. It is a cost of belonging to a Union. We assesed our selves because ALPA Nat. had pulled the plug, but that is another story in itself.

Get over it Gen.
--------------------------------------------------------

Where do you get your info from. Interesting how you think you know it all about ASA when you don't even work here. Should I go ahead and assume since we are all wholly owned that I know all about CMR.

Bob Arnold (ASA MEC Chair) approached Skip (ASA's president)about his position on hiring furloughed ALPA pilots without seniority number resignation. Skip said he agreed with Bob that they should be hired because it was the "RIGHT" thing to do in light of the current situation facing the industry after 9-11. These words are paraphrased straight from Skip's mouth in recurrent when asked about ASA's policy on hiring furloughs.

Get a new source for your ASA gossip...oh yea, and get your facts straight.
 
Varmint said:
--------------------------------------------------------

Where do you get your info from. Interesting how you think you know it all about ASA when you don't even work here. Should I go ahead and assume since we are all wholly owned that I know all about CMR.

Bob Arnold (ASA MEC Chair) approached Skip (ASA's president)about his position on hiring furloughed ALPA pilots without seniority number resignation. Skip said he agreed with Bob that they should be hired because it was the "RIGHT" thing to do in light of the current situation facing the industry after 9-11. These words are paraphrased straight from Skip's mouth in recurrent when asked about ASA's policy on hiring furloughs.

Get a new source for your ASA gossip...oh yea, and get your facts straight.
I work here and I have never heard that. Is it possible sure, but to say that the mec pushed for the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots is wrong. ASA never required pilots to resign their seniority number. Did you ever see anything published supporting the hiring? I would say it was more like there was no objection to the current hiring practice
 
Flycomairjets,

That Bush quote is VERY accurate. We got our C2K contract because we stuck to our guns, and the company was doing well at that point. When we threatened a possible strike, newly elected Bush said "There will be no Major airline strikes this Summer." (That Summer) That right there gave us limited choices. But, you guys were obviously allowed to strike----no Bush intervention---and we expected you to win. That is the absolute truth.

Your furlough fund contributions are great, and I did not know that you did that. And, I ---along with thousands of others, contributed to your strike fund via ALPA. But, your version of how our MEC (Buergery at the time) approached yours is a tall tale. Why he would just demand that is ridiculous, and I don't care if Surplus1 says he was there listening to it. (doubt it) But, I can see your boy Lawson asking for something in return---and that is what is offending. Then ASA comes in and allows our furloughs to fly without seniority resignation, and you DON'T. It takes a couple more years, and when Lawson again sees an opportunity to "get something"---he "floats" an idea towards Comair management. Give me a break.


Afellowaviator,

I bet you and Varmint need to talk. Sounds like you have your info WRONG. BAM!


Varmint,

Thanks for clearing this up for Afellowaviator. He needs reminding often. We are still very thankful to you guys for helping our guys IN NEED, and you will be remembered.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
AV8700 said:
I work here and I have never heard that. Is it possible sure, but to say that the mec pushed for the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots is wrong. ASA never required pilots to resign their seniority number. Did you ever see anything published supporting the hiring? I would say it was more like there was no objection to the current hiring practice
AV,

It wasn't really a push, in my understanding more of mutual agreement. I am just paraphrasing what I heard in the class from Skip. I can't directly quote because its been a couple of months. He did state also that it was a change from the policy of seniority resignation when hired. However, with that said, I am with you on the "no objection to the current hiring practice" issue because I never had to provide any proof of resignation from my previous employer.

My understanding in reading between the lines of what was said was that a resolution or published support of furlough hiring was not needed due to the mutual agreement of MGMT and the MEC.
 

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