The Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009

[livin'thesim]

Unless we wash out about 5-10% of the current regional pilot ranks, this will happen again.

There are just too many SJS sufferers out there flying around.

And I really wish people would quit blaming Buffalo on fatigue. This is classic "don't blame the pilot feel good talk."

The crew, and especially the captain royally effed up. People make mistakes. It's about time that as professionals we grow up and admit that one of our own failed at being a proficient airman. Until pilots accept the responsibility for their airmanship we'll have more accidents.

No wonder the government is taking over. The pilots have lost control of their own profession. We are going to have the authority of the PIC reduced further and further until it finally reaches equilibrium with the skill level and professionalism of our weakest members.

Wash 'em out. No one has a right to a 121 career. The flying public deserves our best.

 

[piav8r]

Unless we wash out about 5-10% of the current regional pilot ranks, this will happen again.

There are just too many SJS sufferers out there flying around.

And I really wish people would quit blaming Buffalo on fatigue. This is classic "don't blame the pilot feel good talk."

The crew, and especially the captain royally effed up. People make mistakes. It's about time that as professionals we grow up and admit that one of our own failed at being a proficient airman. Until pilots accept the responsibility for their airmanship we'll have more accidents.

No wonder the government is taking over. The pilots have lost control of their own profession. We are going to have the authority of the PIC reduced further and further until it finally reaches equilibrium with the skill level and professionalism of our weakest members.

Wash 'em out. No one has a right to a 121 career. The flying public deserves our best.

Problem is the flying public doesn't want our best. They want the best that shopping at WalMart/Sam's Club or ordering off the dollar menu at McDonald's will get them...

 

[brokeflyer]

Funny how no one "shops" around for the best deal on heart surgeons..

When they stop hiring low timers and start paying for real pro's, I see more accidents coming.

You get what you pay for.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Funny how no one "shops" around for the best deal on heart surgeons..

When they stop hiring low timers and start paying for real pro's, I see more accidents coming.

You get what you pay for.

It's because the flying public considers us (still) overpaid button pushers.

I was sitting on a plane the other day deadheading from SLC in uniform. Some dumbass walks by and goes "I guess we're safe if something goes wrong since we've got a back up pilot."

His friend behind him goes "ah it doesnt matter, the computers do everything including the landing themselves."

Idiots. I guess they forgot that even if computers are doing the job- whoever is pressing the buttons had better be pressing the right buttons at the right time.

 

[another cfii]

In the last 20 or so years, the flying public has been generally acknowledging that airline pilots from the PanAm/TWA days are at the pinnacle of their professions. Back then there's no such thing as a regional feed to a hub, and pilots flying a DC3 is the same as the next pilot who flies a DC10 across the pond. To them, we all receive the same training, are capable of flying in every airplane known to man. We, as pilots, basically, were invincible.

Now the bureaucrats in Washington have several accidents on their hands and they feel the need to do something. The feds has known this kind of problems for a long time, and yet nothing was done. It's truly too bad it has to wait until they investigate this latest accident in BUF and highlighting pilot fatigue as a probable cause. I'd say that's only 1% right, because our whole industry from the hiring practice, to pilot training, to scheduling needs an overhaul. It may have worked in 20 years ago, but it truly needs to change before another bad accident happens.

 

[Sedona16]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124649

 

[list2002]

Much of the work rules and fatigue issues, hopefully some will see, are industry wide. Not just a regional thing.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Congress to toughen airline standards (Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009) - USATODAY.com

• "Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license....

cliff
NBO

 

[Ben Franklin]

Funny how no one "shops" around for the best deal on heart surgeons..

http://www.placidway.com/package-se...ml?PHPSESSID=b395fb64461d9d48ffc4b91ce1456a22

Medical tourism is huge. Try LSD, it'll broooooaaaaden your mind.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Caveman]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

 

[Abernathy]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

Is this a serious post? The 300 hour pilot was not the exception at regionals the past 3 years or so, it was the norm. Most of the people in my newhire class, almost all of them except me and 2 or 3 others, had under 500 hours flight time. I know several personally in other classes who had between 200-250 hours of TT. Hardly any reasonable amount of twin, and none had any CFI time of course.

A friend of mine went to Mesa and quickly left for a reputable regional. His sim partner didn't know any of the basic, most fundamental air-rules. 250 below 10--never heard of it. Flying skills were atrocious. He was the perfect candidate for a washout...but they passed him. Another loser student at the small FBO I taught at could barely speak english, couldn't pass a Mesa, PCL, or any other training program past the first few weeks. Piedmont took him and made him one of theirs. How many hours did he have? He barely passed his commercial.

And down south, they have some of that "good ol' boy" sh** with CAs, so in order for a CA to get canned, he'd have to crash the airplane, survive, pee on the wreckage, and then lie about it.

Another point. You think regional pilots are as fatigued as mainline pilots? AFAIK, Delta gets 8 hours behind the closed hotel room door. Mainline pilots don't wake up at 3:30AM to fly 5 legs, finishing off their 16 hour duty day flying a VOR approach into Northeast Assf**k Mississippi trying to key the runway lights...then get reduced rest and do it all over again the next day.

The 300 hour pilot is NOT a rare exception to the rule, as much as you'd like to believe it is when you're deadheading on Freedom Air.

 

[Flopgut]

I'll agree ,in part, with Caveman. Why isn't anybody, including Prater, going after CAL mgt for sharpshooting the scope clause? That's part of the larger truth to this as well.

 

[ualdriver]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

This post is one of those where I just shake my head. ALPA gets mf'ed up and down on this forum for "not doing anything" for airline pilots. Then when one of the many examples where it clearly DOES benefit pilots becomes so painfully obvious that even the thickest ALPA pilot can see it clear as day without having to do something ridiculous like go to a union meeting, read a union publication, or actually pay attention, he complains that "ALPA is being disingenuous." UFB.

Then you go on to list the VERY THINGS that I would surmise most pilots want ALPA to do something about (the growth of regionals, tired pilots, the inexperience of some regional new hires, poor pilot treatment by bottom tier regionals, etc.) and then you complain that ALPA is just painting with a broad brush. Aren't the things you mention THE VERY THINGS THAT I READ ABOUT DAY AFTER DAY on this forum that need to be fixed? ALPA has reps., right now, helping influence the formation of this legislation to FIX THOSE THINGS. I mean, what more do you want?

 

[C Festerpuss]

I only hope they don't change the education requirements.

My fourth trip thru Third grade was really hard. And graduating from high school, forget about it. That GED test was a real bi&ch.

 

[livin'thesim]

Rez also misses the point that some turboprop operators (like Eagle) are better than some shady jet operators (pinnacle).

Implying that anyone flying props is somehow a beauty school dropout from the jet world is an ignorant notion.