The Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009

[Sedona16]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124649

 

[list2002]

Much of the work rules and fatigue issues, hopefully some will see, are industry wide. Not just a regional thing.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Congress to toughen airline standards (Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009) - USATODAY.com

• "Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license....

cliff
NBO

 

[Ben Franklin]

Funny how no one "shops" around for the best deal on heart surgeons..

http://www.placidway.com/package-se...ml?PHPSESSID=b395fb64461d9d48ffc4b91ce1456a22

Medical tourism is huge. Try LSD, it'll broooooaaaaden your mind.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Caveman]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

 

[Abernathy]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

Is this a serious post? The 300 hour pilot was not the exception at regionals the past 3 years or so, it was the norm. Most of the people in my newhire class, almost all of them except me and 2 or 3 others, had under 500 hours flight time. I know several personally in other classes who had between 200-250 hours of TT. Hardly any reasonable amount of twin, and none had any CFI time of course.

A friend of mine went to Mesa and quickly left for a reputable regional. His sim partner didn't know any of the basic, most fundamental air-rules. 250 below 10--never heard of it. Flying skills were atrocious. He was the perfect candidate for a washout...but they passed him. Another loser student at the small FBO I taught at could barely speak english, couldn't pass a Mesa, PCL, or any other training program past the first few weeks. Piedmont took him and made him one of theirs. How many hours did he have? He barely passed his commercial.

And down south, they have some of that "good ol' boy" sh** with CAs, so in order for a CA to get canned, he'd have to crash the airplane, survive, pee on the wreckage, and then lie about it.

Another point. You think regional pilots are as fatigued as mainline pilots? AFAIK, Delta gets 8 hours behind the closed hotel room door. Mainline pilots don't wake up at 3:30AM to fly 5 legs, finishing off their 16 hour duty day flying a VOR approach into Northeast Assf**k Mississippi trying to key the runway lights...then get reduced rest and do it all over again the next day.

The 300 hour pilot is NOT a rare exception to the rule, as much as you'd like to believe it is when you're deadheading on Freedom Air.

 

[Flopgut]

I'll agree ,in part, with Caveman. Why isn't anybody, including Prater, going after CAL mgt for sharpshooting the scope clause? That's part of the larger truth to this as well.

 

[ualdriver]

ALPA's disingenuousness about this is staggering. All they are doing is goading congress and the FAA into going after the regional airlines because ALPA has been impotent in checking the growth of regionals. It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about regaining flying mainline ALPA pilots gave up 15 years ago. The broad brush painting most regional pilots as being inexperienced, immature and overly fatigued is inaccurate. They are no more tired or unprofessional than the average mainline pilot.

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT. Simply requiring an ATP to fly in the 121 world would eliminate the few that have been hired with less than 1500 TT. IMO, the uproar about inexperienced regional FOs is much ado about nothing.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals. Those that have issues or are lower time than normal end up at places like Colgan. Unfortunately in this case a weak CA was paired up with a very inexperienced FO. Add in a little ice and you have a recipe for disaster. It was the perfect storm of circumstances that killed 50 people. It should not be used to indict the entire regional pilot group. Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

This post is one of those where I just shake my head. ALPA gets mf'ed up and down on this forum for "not doing anything" for airline pilots. Then when one of the many examples where it clearly DOES benefit pilots becomes so painfully obvious that even the thickest ALPA pilot can see it clear as day without having to do something ridiculous like go to a union meeting, read a union publication, or actually pay attention, he complains that "ALPA is being disingenuous." UFB.

Then you go on to list the VERY THINGS that I would surmise most pilots want ALPA to do something about (the growth of regionals, tired pilots, the inexperience of some regional new hires, poor pilot treatment by bottom tier regionals, etc.) and then you complain that ALPA is just painting with a broad brush. Aren't the things you mention THE VERY THINGS THAT I READ ABOUT DAY AFTER DAY on this forum that need to be fixed? ALPA has reps., right now, helping influence the formation of this legislation to FIX THOSE THINGS. I mean, what more do you want?

 

[C Festerpuss]

I only hope they don't change the education requirements.

My fourth trip thru Third grade was really hard. And graduating from high school, forget about it. That GED test was a real bi&ch.

 

[livin'thesim]

Rez also misses the point that some turboprop operators (like Eagle) are better than some shady jet operators (pinnacle).

Implying that anyone flying props is somehow a beauty school dropout from the jet world is an ignorant notion.

 

[kf4amu]

The 300 hour new hire regional pilot is the exceedingly rare exception to the rule. There were a few from aviation based college programs, but not very many. My guess is you could take all the 300 hour new hires in the entire industry and comfortable put them in one room. Most new hires realistically have 1500-2000 TT.

Well I guess that room was my newhire class then. I had 360 TT, no degree, and no graduation from any preferential college program. And I was not the lowest time pilot in the group either. 8 of the 19 in the class washed out.

The airmanship of the Colgan crew is an issue. However, with apologies to most Colgan crews, Colgan isn't exactly the premier regional gig. They are a turboprop operator. Guys/gals that have their stuff together can get hired at jet regionals.

No thanks, I can't take the pay cut. Plus with my lack of experience, I chose to fly an airplane that requires you to fly it, not just manage the systems. We do things everyday in turboprops that RJ pilots wouldnt dream about. Everyone I've talked to respects TP time a helluva lot more than RJ time, and given my lack of experience that's what I chose to do. The pay increase aint too bad either.

Most of them are experienced and professional aviators.

Fire away......

If most pilots are experienced and professional, whats the problem with requiring 1500TT? It won't affect the experienced and professional ones, except in the sense that a rising tide lifts all boats. Everyone benefits.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This post is one of those where I just shake my head. ALPA gets mf'ed up and down on this forum for "not doing anything" for airline pilots. Then when one of the many examples where it clearly DOES benefit pilots becomes so painfully obvious that even the thickest ALPA pilot can see it clear as day without having to do something ridiculous like go to a union meeting, read a union publication, or actually pay attention, he complains that "ALPA is being disingenuous." UFB.

Then you go on to list the VERY THINGS that I would surmise most pilots want ALPA to do something about (the growth of regionals, tired pilots, the inexperience of some regional new hires, poor pilot treatment by bottom tier regionals, etc.) and then you complain that ALPA is just painting with a broad brush. Aren't the things you mention THE VERY THINGS THAT I READ ABOUT DAY AFTER DAY on this forum that need to be fixed? ALPA has reps., right now, helping influence the formation of this legislation to FIX THOSE THINGS. I mean, what more do you want?

Then why did ALPA support the MPL?...Looks like we might finally get an experience requirement, and ALPA has nothing to do with it...In fact ALPA has supported the MPL which would make things worse....

 

[ualdriver]

Then why did ALPA support the MPL?...Looks like we might finally get an experience requirement, and ALPA has nothing to do with it...In fact ALPA has supported the MPL which would make things worse....

Again, why do you care what ALPA supports or doesn't support? You shouldn't for two reasons:

1) According to you, ALPA is an ineffective organization so therefore it matters not whether ALPA supports or doesn't support MPL (or anything else for that matter) as ALPA is useless and.....

2) You stated on another thread that you're not paying dues (correct?), and therefore do not desire to be an ALPA member....so don't worry about what ALPA supports or doesn't support. Just sit back, complain, and let the rest of us who actually care worry about it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Again, why do you care what ALPA supports or doesn't support? You shouldn't for two reasons:

1) According to you, ALPA is an ineffective organization so therefore it matters not whether ALPA supports or doesn't support MPL (or anything else for that matter) as ALPA is useless and.....

2) You stated on another thread that you're not paying dues (correct?), and therefore do not desire to be an ALPA member....so don't worry about what ALPA supports or doesn't support. Just sit back, complain, and let the rest of us who actually care worry about it.

Typical response from the Herndon cheerleading section....Ignore the question and attack the person who dares to question....Keep it up Ualdriver...You are helping to make my point for me.....

Is the mighty ALPA going to allow management to charge UAX pilots to jumpseat? Do you even care?

 

[ualdriver]

Typical response from the Herndon cheerleading section....Ignore the question and attack the person who dares to question....Keep it up Ualdriver...You are helping to make my point for me.....

Is the mighty ALPA going to allow management to charge UAX pilots to jumpseat? Do you even care?

Ummm.....I don't think I attacked you. I asked you why you care about what ALPA supports or doesn't support? You love to write about ALPA's ineffectiveness. You brag about not paying dues and not being in good standing. You tell us all how you send prepaid ALPA-PAC cards back to Herdon so they get stuck paying the postage.........and then you want to discuss ALPA politics with a guy who is nothing but an ALPA cheerleader?

For all practical intents and purposes, you're not an ALPA member. Go debate ALPA politics with the Virgin America guys or something, will ya?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Typical response from the Herndon cheerleading section....Ignore the question and attack the person who dares to question....Keep it up Ualdriver...You are helping to make my point for me.....

What point is that? He's right, you're an ALPA hater. Let's face it, your hatred is based on the fact you couldn't get hired at a legacy, are stuck at a shrinking ASA, and are the result of a frivilous lawsuit filed to get what you couldn't get through the proper venue!
What have you done for ALPA besides take notes from meetings and act like a spoiled little girl?

Is the mighty ALPA going to allow management to charge UAX pilots to jumpseat? Do you even care?

How would the mighty rjdc handle it? Another lawsuit?

 

[Nevets]

Then why did ALPA support the MPL?...Looks like we might finally get an experience requirement, and ALPA has nothing to do with it...In fact ALPA has supported the MPL which would make things worse....

MPL is obviously a mistake. Hopefully this corrects it. But ALPA did lobby for this. In fact, they want to take it further. Here is what ALPA said about this:

Need for Stronger Academic Emphasis

The Joint Aviation Authority (JAA), now the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), and FAA pilot licensing requirements are both ICAO-compliant. The single biggest difference between EASA and FAA is knowledge requirements. The FAA theoretical knowledge is simply not as demanding as EASA, which has 14 written exams versus one by the FAA, which is a multiple-choice exam. The EASA exams require the student to be tested for 30-40 hours. By stark contrast, the FAA publishes its exam questions with answers provided so a student can purchase them, study the questions, and pass its single exam. Examination questions are not available for EASA exams in such a manner.

The least demanding Federal Aviation Regulations which govern commercial pilot license requirements (i.e., §61.125 and §61.155) specify the aeronautical knowledge requirements for commercial and airline transport pilot ratings. These rules were written decades ago, when there was no expectation that they would be used as minimum standards to train pilots to take jobs as airline first officers. The requirements emphasize weather and navigation, including interaction with air traffic control. There is some mention of aircraft aerodynamics and human factors, including aeronautical decision making and judgment as well as crew resource management. The regulations allow self-study and many such training courses emphasize passing the test rather than learning the material. We do not feel these requirements are adequate to prepare a professional airline pilot. The ground instruction of these subjects needs to be strengthened with required formal classroom academic instruction and more extensive testing and examination.

The EASA-approved training course for a commercial airline pilot tends to be rather structured and rigorous. FAA should develop and implement a corollary ground school and testing process in FAR Part 121 for all pilots who seek commercial airline careers. Testing akin to the quality of the Certified Public Accountant (CPA) exams or bar exam for attorneys would benefit aviation by serving as a screening tool to ensure that, in the future, only the most knowledgeable and dedicated pilots join the ranks of airline pilots.
http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pressroom/testimony/2009/PraterTM_6-11-09written.pdf

 

[maru657]

More stringent academic requirments??? The Delta pilots who wrecked a lot of airplanes during the 80's had more stringent academic requirements as opposed to the old ex-cropdusters who originated Delta. So did the pilots who managed to bend a lot of tin at American during the 90's and the Fed-Ex pilots who have almost made the DC-10 or MD-11 an extinct model are very well educated. Your mixing apples and oranges. I suspect the kids who crashed the Colgain Air flight could point to degrees with pride, or at least they could if they were still around. What they could'nt display was experience. They had no practical experience with what the ice was doing to their airplane. Give me the cowboy who spent his or her formative years flying junk aircraft where ever. They may not be able to define an adverb but they know ice and weather, windshear will not be a suprise or a mystery and they can explain lift in bucolic terms with a beer and a shot.

 

[lookin4better]

I am sure glad I was lucky to never fail a check ride.... its going to be the kiss of death for a while regardless of the reason. Regionals will have no problem keeping people, fail a PC and its over. Glad for the time being I'm a " client " instead of a student when it comes to check rides.

Also, I am wondering if this new database of info will be able to be double checked by us pilots to ensure accuracy. Naaaa....not needed no one working for the govt would make any errors entering info....right?

 

[Nevets]

Also, I am wondering if this new database of info will be able to be double checked by us pilots to ensure accuracy. Naaaa....not needed no one working for the govt would make any errors entering info....right?

You are able to request all the information the FAA has on you to check for its accuracy. It contains all checkrides, medicals, and enforcement actions.