Teterboro Accident - CL600

[Groundpounder]

The a/c is based at FXE.

 

[Texasskicker]

Does anybody remember this one CL-600 abort TEB

NTSB Identification: NYC04IA054.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Public Inquiries
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Incident occurred Tuesday, December 16, 2003 in Teterboro, NJ
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/3/2004
Aircraft: Canadair CL-600, registration: N95EB
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
Earlier in the day, a different flightcrew performed a successful aborted takeoff in the incident airplane. The aborted takeoff occurred with seven to nine passengers on board, at 139 knots; when the flightcrew was unable to rotate the airplane. The only difference between that aborted takeoff, and the uneventful previous flight, was the addition of 3,000 to 4,000 pounds of fuel. Following that aborted takeoff, the airplane underwent a maintenance inspection which did not reveal any discrepancies pertaining to the inability to rotate. The airplane was then returned to service. When the incident captain arrived at the airport, he was informed of the previous aborted takeoff. The incident captain attempted a takeoff on a shorter runway at the airport. During rotation, the airplane did not respond to elevator inputs, and the captain aborted the takeoff. The airplane then traveled off the end of the runway and came to rest in mud. Following the overrun, the incident captain failed to produce a weight and balance calculation, or accurate count of passengers on board at the time. The wind was reported as variable at 4 knots. When asked why he chose a shorter runway to attempt the takeoff, the incident captain reported that it was the runway in use at the time. The aircraft manufacturer inspected the airplane, and did not find any discrepancies pertaining to the aborted takeoff. The manufacturer also computed two weight and balance calculations for the incident takeoff. Both calculations revealed that the airplane was above the maximum gross takeoff weight, and outside the forward center-of-gravity envelope. Subsequently, the airplane tookoff with no passengers on board, and flew uneventfully to another airport.


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this incident as follows:

The captain's inadequate preflight planning, which resulted in an overrun during an aborted takeoff.
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

.....HISTORY repeating???

 

[Texasskicker]

HIstory repeating???

NTSB Identification: NYC04IA054.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Public Inquiries
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Incident occurred Tuesday, December 16, 2003 in Teterboro, NJ
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/3/2004
Aircraft: Canadair CL-600, registration: N95EB
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
Earlier in the day, a different flightcrew performed a successful aborted takeoff in the incident airplane. The aborted takeoff occurred with seven to nine passengers on board, at 139 knots; when the flightcrew was unable to rotate the airplane. The only difference between that aborted takeoff, and the uneventful previous flight, was the addition of 3,000 to 4,000 pounds of fuel. Following that aborted takeoff, the airplane underwent a maintenance inspection which did not reveal any discrepancies pertaining to the inability to rotate. The airplane was then returned to service. When the incident captain arrived at the airport, he was informed of the previous aborted takeoff. The incident captain attempted a takeoff on a shorter runway at the airport. During rotation, the airplane did not respond to elevator inputs, and the captain aborted the takeoff. The airplane then traveled off the end of the runway and came to rest in mud. Following the overrun, the incident captain failed to produce a weight and balance calculation, or accurate count of passengers on board at the time. The wind was reported as variable at 4 knots. When asked why he chose a shorter runway to attempt the takeoff, the incident captain reported that it was the runway in use at the time. The aircraft manufacturer inspected the airplane, and did not find any discrepancies pertaining to the aborted takeoff. The manufacturer also computed two weight and balance calculations for the incident takeoff. Both calculations revealed that the airplane was above the maximum gross takeoff weight, and outside the forward center-of-gravity envelope. Subsequently, the airplane tookoff with no passengers on board, and flew uneventfully to another airport.


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this incident as follows:

The captain's inadequate preflight planning, which resulted in an overrun during an aborted takeoff.
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

 

[G100driver]

Hopefully enough cheapa$$ operators and owners will get the message about de-icing and putting the airplane in the hanger for the night. Unfortunatly many rules of thumb and what we think of as standard operating procedures are written in blood.

Even if the NTSB determines that this was not the case, these high profile crashes start the discussion among the people who pay the bills.

I am thankful that all were accounted for.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

GEEZSH, keep those reliable witnesses coming...

"Witness Robert Sosa told WNBC-TV he saw the plane crash into the building.

''Two guys came off with their hand cuts,'' Sosa said. ''The pilot said he dragged himself out. He literally crawled out like a baby, and all the other people just walked out normal.''

''He said as they tried to airborne before five minutes past (7 a.m.), they just lost control and they couldn't airborne the plane. They went straight through, 100 miles per hour,'' Sosa said."

 

[Texasskicker]

The full report ... of a prior incident at TEB

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC04IA054&rpt=fa

 

[Pilot124]

Here is the plane..Reports show no fatalities

http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00265489

 

[murfdawg998]

g100, i hope you are right, but the last i heard was that there were 2 persons unaccounted for...God be with them

 

[Vortilon]

Maybe the frost on your wings easily rubbed off.....howabout the tail?

Glad I'm not flying corporate/charter anymore.

 

[Texasskicker]

Not the first time for this at TEB.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC04IA054&rpt=fa

Another CL600 overrun, but on 24. If it had been on 6, aircraft wouldnt have stopped in mud, but ....you know where.

SCARY!

 

[G100driver]

g100, i hope you are right, but the last i heard was that there were 2 persons unaccounted for...God be with them

Me too. Just going on the prior post as reported by FOX News. No info other than the stuff on this board.

UPDATE: 9:57am: FOX News is reporting that the good news is that everyone has been accounted for, and no word on the extent of injuries.

 

[UnstableAviator]

I'm thankful to read there were no fatalities. The pics on CNN sure did look pretty bad.

I hope everyone, especially the co-pilot and car driver, recover fully.

 

[C601]

Interesting........

 

[CE402]

Not to jump to conclusions or anything, but . . .

I wonder if they deiced . . .

Did you use the "Jump to Conclusions Mat?"

 

[cvsfly]

Going there tomorrow. I guess they took out the LLZ.

TEB 02/001 TEB 6/24 18 IN SNBNK WEF 0502021015
TEB 02/002 TEB 1/19 18 IN SNBNK WEF 0502021015
TEB 02/003 TEB 1/19 CLSD 1100-2000 DLY WEF 0502021142-0502052000
TEB 02/004 TEB 6 ILS LLZ OTS
TEB 02/006 TEB AP CLSD

Glad all are OK. These past few months aren't going to give much hope for insurance rates to come down. There is no flight that must go. Ya'll be careful out there.

 

[G100driver]

.........

 

[The_Russian]

370V

It is operated by PJM. They are good people and I hope nothing bad comes of this. They already lost a good man last year in a car wreck.

 

[100LL... Again!]

NTSB Identification: NYC04IA054.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Public Inquiries
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Incident occurred Tuesday, December 16, 2003 in Teterboro, NJ
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/3/2004
Aircraft: Canadair CL-600, registration: N95EB
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
Earlier in the day, a different flightcrew performed a successful aborted takeoff in the incident airplane. The aborted takeoff occurred with seven to nine passengers on board, at 139 knots; when the flightcrew was unable to rotate the airplane. The only difference between that aborted takeoff, and the uneventful previous flight, was the addition of 3,000 to 4,000 pounds of fuel. Following that aborted takeoff, the airplane underwent a maintenance inspection which did not reveal any discrepancies pertaining to the inability to rotate. The airplane was then returned to service. When the incident captain arrived at the airport, he was informed of the previous aborted takeoff. The incident captain attempted a takeoff on a shorter runway at the airport. During rotation, the airplane did not respond to elevator inputs, and the captain aborted the takeoff. The airplane then traveled off the end of the runway and came to rest in mud. Following the overrun, the incident captain failed to produce a weight and balance calculation, or accurate count of passengers on board at the time. The wind was reported as variable at 4 knots. When asked why he chose a shorter runway to attempt the takeoff, the incident captain reported that it was the runway in use at the time. The aircraft manufacturer inspected the airplane, and did not find any discrepancies pertaining to the aborted takeoff. The manufacturer also computed two weight and balance calculations for the incident takeoff. Both calculations revealed that the airplane was above the maximum gross takeoff weight, and outside the forward center-of-gravity envelope. Subsequently, the airplane tookoff with no passengers on board, and flew uneventfully to another airport.


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this incident as follows:

The captain's inadequate preflight planning, which resulted in an overrun during an aborted takeoff.
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

Nice job! Ruin it for the rest of us! Until there is more accountability for professionalism like there is in the airlines, crap like the above story will continue to occur.

Obviously, it is too soon to know what hapened today in TEB, though. But the above story makes me pretty mad. That guy should lose his certificates.

 

[Moonfly201]

Moonfly:
Where in the area do you live?

Not real close. Eastern PA, but the temperatures at TEB are usually within a few degrees of my airport. Sounds like the frost in PA was thicker this morning than what they had in Jersey ... at least from what I gather from news reports.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Maybe the frost on your wings easily rubbed off.....howabout the tail?

Glad I'm not flying corporate/charter anymore.

whys that?

Did you let your cheap boss talk you into flying with ice and frost on your wings?

we're glad your not flying charter/corporate anymore either......at least now someone tells you when you can come or go....Its safer that way...

.

 

[rptrain]

How's this for ambulance chasing.

Press ReleaseSource: Kreindler & Kreindler LLP


New Jersey Aviation Attorney/Pilot Comments on Teterboro Crash, Corporate Jet Safety
Wednesday February 2, 6:34 pm ET 'Take offs and landings are the most hazardous factors of corporate jet flights, and the frequency of crashes during these segments of flight deserves close scrutiny,' says New Jersey Attorney/Pilot at Nation's Leading Aviation Law Firm

NEW YORK, Feb. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- "Pilots of small jets need to be especially aware of the inherent risks of flights such as the one that crashed in Teterboro today, especially in winter weather, which often presents some of the most dangerous conditions," says Brian Alexander, a leading aviation lawyer who resides in New Jersey and is a pilot who has flown in and out of Teterboro Airport.

Mr. Alexander, a partner at Kreindler & Kreindler LLP, the largest aviation law firm in the United States, has handled several corporate jet crash cases. He says that "careful investigation will determine where the fault for this crash lies, but whether this was a mechanical, pilot or other error, this points to how essential it is for pilots to observe all the rules necessary to ensure safe travel. Further, airport conditions, including the length of runways, are factors that must be studied."

Legal experts at Kreindler, including some of whom are also seasoned pilots, are available to media as resources on questions related to this morning's lift-off crash of a Challenger CL-600 aircraft in Teterboro, NJ, which resulted in at least 14 people injured.

Kreindler & Kreindler currently represents numerous passengers and families of corporate jet air crashes, including the family of a New York real estate mogul killed in a Teterboro Airport crash in 2002, which also occurred on takeoff. Attorneys at the firm are available to offer to media commentary about: * Risks inherent with corporate/charter jet flights * Historical accounts of similar crashes * Victims' and victims' family rights in air crashes * All other legal issues and guidelines related to air crashes * Airplane technical and operational matters * Crash investigation, accident reconstruction, role of weather in crashes Experts at Kreindler available to media include: Brian Alexander: Kreindler law partner, New Jersey resident and a graduate of the United States Military Academy who served as a helicopter and fixed wing pilot from 1985-1990. He was graduated from the Army Aviation Accident Investigation Course, accruing thousands of hours in a variety of rotary and fixed wing aircraft, has more than 1,000 hours piloting small aircraft, and has successfully litigated many commuter and corporate crash cases. Marc S. Moller: Senior Kreindler law partner who has represented thousands of victims of commercial and general aviation disasters, and litigated accidents involving single-engine, multi-engine, helicopter, corporate jet and military equipment for more than 25 years. He is presently the Plaintiffs' Liaison Counsel for all tort litigation arising from the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and is an internationally recognized expert in aircraft litigation. He has handled several cases involving crashes of corporate jets.

About Kreindler & Kreindler LLP Founded in 1950, Kreindler & Kreindler LLP (http://www.kreindler.com) is nationally recognized as the first and most prominent aviation law firm in the nation. The firm has been the leading plaintiff legal counsel on hundreds of aviation cases, including major ones such as the September 11 terrorist attacks, Pan Am Lockerbie Flight 103, Korean Airlines Flight 007, and American Airlines Flight 587, and many cases of small private and commercial crashes, including those resulting in the deaths of Pennsylvania Senator John Heinz, Walt Disney Company President Frank Wells, R&B performing artist Aaliyah and ABC News executive David Jayne, who perished in a 1979 Learjet crash. The leading legal textbook in the aviation field, "Aviation Accident Law," and a standard legal treatise, "New York Law of Torts," were authored by members of the firm.

 

[Vortilon]

G200,

Thanks for the mature reply.

Actually I used to fly for a very good 135/91 operator who always tried to do things the right way, but it often took pressure to make it that way. I never had a problem standing up to my employer or delaying a flight to make something safe, but we all know people that have compromised their standards to get the job done. (or didn't have the experience or common sense to say "no"). Being a pilot for an on-demand charter operator is extrememly demanding and can be a lot of fun, especially when when you have a complicated day but make it happen for the customer. But every day you operate without a safety net, and this is where charter flying fails the traveling public. There are people out there that aren't cut out for it, and not everyone can be 100% every day.

Bizjet charter flying is simply not as safe as other avenues in aviation. Not much FAA oversight, lack of safety-minded, professional corporate cultures, lack of pilot standardization, 'company training' varies widely from operation to operation, hiring standards vary widely, FSI/Bombardier/Simuflight is a joke...if you pay you pass (and get a nice coffee mug), and everyone flies a whopping 30-40 hours a month...not a great way to be truly proficient. I'm not even going to get into maintenance, overbearing DOs or passengers.

That being said, the Fractionals run more like an airline and have better safety systems within the corporation...I wouldn't hesitate to put my family on a NetJets, Flex, or Options aircraft. Corporate flight departments are also better able to establish proper corporate cultures due to low turnover, more selective hiring, and close oversight. They tend to pay the best also, so they generally get the best to choose from.

I fly for a major airline, and I don't miss the charter flying one bit. Everyone I work with knows that no flight "needs to go ASAP" and any person in the system can put on the brakes in the name of safety. Its also comforting to know that if I have a bad day, there's a lot more safety built into the system that ensures I'm coming home for dinner.

Its too early to say what happened today...its a miracle nobody was killed. But I think we all know in our gut there's a good chance the crew will be culpable here. I'm glad you like your job, but I think with the growing popularity of Bizjet flying we're going to see a lot more of what happened today....unfortunately.

Be safe out there....

 

[rchcfi]

How's this for ambulance chasing.

Attorneys at the firm are available to offer to media commentary about: * Risks inherent with corporate/charter jet flights * Historical accounts of similar crashes * Victims' and victims' family rights in air crashes * All other legal issues and guidelines related to air crashes * Airplane technical and operational matters *.

This kinda crap just makes my blood boil...........So I'm sure one of these **lawyers went to Montreal to get properly trained on the technical and operational matters of the CL60.....Yeah right!!!!

 

[Duderino]

I heard from a friend the "cabin attendant" did an outstanding job getting everyone out of the plane. A 22 year old bombshell, and still went beyone her call of duty. I was so sad when I saw the tail number, but still releived to hear that so far there are no fatalities. God bless all involved.
Dude

 

[Gatorman]

Back ground info on N370V

I am sorry that I am getting to this storyline so late....

Two years ago I was the mechanic/inspector on that aircraft while it was being managed by Regal Aviation at Love Field.
It came from the Canadain Department of Defence and had gone through a massive de-modification by GDAS (Gulfstream) Dallas. Once the de-mods were done, the aircraft had a new interior and paint done on it. It was not a bad aircraft when it was all said and done.
I was along with the aircraft as it was going through the drills to get the plane on Regal's 135 cert. and it did so with no problems.

In as much as I did not like DDH, those who were at Regal did a fine job managing the aircraft while it was there.

As for how the people got out of the aircraft when the MED does not appear to be open and the emergency exit could not be used.....the aft baggage door is under the left engine would be my best guess.

 

[The_Russian]

I heard from a friend the "cabin attendant" did an outstanding job getting everyone out of the plane. A 22 year old bombshell, and still went beyone her call of duty. I was so sad when I saw the tail number, but still releived to hear that so far there are no fatalities. God bless all involved.
Dude

I know the "bombshell". She is frickin hot man.

 

[Corona]

News Flash for total morons!

How's this for ambulance chasing.

Press ReleaseSource: Kreindler & Kreindler LLP


'Take offs and landings are the most hazardous factors of corporate jet flights, and the frequency of crashes during these segments of flight deserves close scrutiny,' says New Jersey Attorney/Pilot at Nation's Leading Aviation Law Firm

It's dangerous being near the ground in an airplane? How come my instructors never told me that?

Maybe science will invent a technology to keep us away from the ground during takeoff and landing.

C

(Question: D'ya think Kreindler & Kreindler are a married brother and sister? I think so too...)

(Also: Crashes that take place during t/o and landing are easier to investigate, as the airplanes are on the ground, as opposed to other crashes where they aren't.)

 

[VA AV8R]

Nice job! Ruin it for the rest of us! Until there is more accountability for professionalism like there is in the airlines, crap like the above story will continue to occur.

Obviously, it is too soon to know what hapened today in TEB, though. But the above story makes me pretty mad. That guy should lose his certificates.

Unfortunately there's not a lot more accountability at the airlines, at least not at the regional level. A lot of clowns in the left (and right) seats. Going back and forth to the same limited number of airports, combined with thorough SOP's, takes away a lot of the risk. Had this been a flight involving dispatch, the release would have told the PIC what he could weigh, and what his runway limitations were. He'd have to work a little harder to screw something up.

 

[Texasskicker]

Obviously, it is too soon to know what hapened today in TEB, though. But the above story makes me pretty mad. That guy should lose his certificates.

100LL, you are so right. Whats got me hot under the cowboy hat today's a combination of things. All the usual Bullcrap that usually follows with the media dumbazzes and the talkin heads that had to scramble out of their offices to find their tie and talkin points.

Did anyone else see the news conference that happened shortly after the accident? Port Authority chief, deputy governor of NJ...lefties all, and ignorant. Then the reporters askin questions that are usual half-brained attempts to get em to speculate even though they said they wouldnt under any circumstances speculate.

Man, I wish I could find a transcript of that presser, cause the questions were so freakin out there. "Cant you put up a fence to prevent this from happening?"

But one question burned me...give us a list of accidents that have occurred at TEB. They ran down a list, but what the dumb reporters should be concerned about are incidents as well, cause just a couple of years ago this accident almost happened...came very close to bein the same thing.

Then the PA chief said in response to a question about big aircraft at TEB, "Well, the Bush Administration wanted to bring bigger a/c into TEB, but we resisted." I know some bigger aircraft that probably would have required less runway for that mission that day.

100LL, I know from previous posts we have similar views. Even in unfortunate circumstances, the lefties, both leaders and press, are tryin to take advantage and make the administration look bad somehow.

-->>Steam comin out from my boots....

Tex.

 

[slowtation capt]

The FA

I know the "bombshell". She is frickin hot man.

I heard the plane was based in FXE, A girl that I used to know was a FA on a 600 out of there, haven't spoken in a long time to her, but was wondering if possible it was her. No longer have any #'s so can't call. I am not asking for her name on here, but maybe initials or a pm to find out.

Thanks