Teterboro Accident - CL600

[FL000]

You can blame the moderator for that one, thank you....
I posted the story on 3 boards when it occurred : Charter, Corporate, & Fractional (all crews who would be affected/concerned by the story). The moderator removed them (and everyone's reponses), and haphazardly plastered them (in no particular order) onto this one. I never (until this post) have posted a single thing to THIS board.

On that note, it's probably best to post just one thread in the most appropriate category. That way, we can keep up with responses in one thread, rather than keeping up with 3 or more.

 

[goofyleftwich]

must be a PFT outfit! right?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

What charter company was this??

Ace

 

[timmay]

Latest I heard today in Dallas is that the captain said there was smoke in the cockpit at or near V1.

Thats interesting I remember from ground school on the 604 the instructor telling a story about a 600 that was deiced, and during the takeoff the packs blew smoke into the cockpit. Apparently the smoke was so thick the pilots couldnt see the panel.

 

[deadstick]

about the closed entry door...

One shot I saw was when they were still hitting the fire.

It looked like one of the fire engines had the "spear" (I don't know the real name) that will puncture the fuselage and disperses foam in several directions. What if the firefighters closed the door to flood the cabin with foam? Foam was flowing out of some holes on the top and the side of the aircraft.

Just a guess.

 

[Texasskicker]

How much rest time did they get?

From AIN alerts...



Accident Challenger Parked Overnight on Ramp
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]According to Ken Forester, Jr., CEO of Million Air Teterboro, the chartered Challenger 600 (N370V) involved in yesterday morning’s takeoff crash at Teterboro Airport, N.J., arrived at the airfield at approximately midnight the night before the accident and stayed on the ramp until departure the next morning. Million Air Teterboro fueled the aircraft and provided catering but no other services, according to Forester. A spokeswoman for Atlantic Aviation said the Challenger taxied from Million Air to the Atlantic terminal at about 6:15 a.m.—about an hour before the accident–to pick up eight passengers and fly them to Midway Airport, Chicago. The passengers, none of whom was injured, included five employees of New York investment firm Kelso & Co. and three other business associates. The aircraft went off the end of Runway 6 during its unsuccessful takeoff roll, through the airport’s perimeter fence, across a six-lane highway and hit at least two cars, coming to a stop after its forward fuselage penetrated a warehouse wall. One pilot was seriously hurt with broken bones, and a person in one of the cars struck by the aircraft was critically injured. The other pilot and the flight attendant were not seriously hurt. The NTSB’s investigator in charge said the CVR indicated that there was a decision to “discontinue the takeoff” and the thrust reversers were deployed. Three witnesses, including two employees of Atlantic Aviation and a pilot of another airplane, reported seeing no frost on the Challenger, according to the investigator. Weather at the time of the accident was 10 miles visibility, clear sky and temperature of 22 degrees F.
[/font]

 

[jimpilot]

Question

G200,

Bizjet charter flying is simply not as safe as other avenues in aviation. Not much FAA oversight, lack of safety-minded, professional corporate cultures, lack of pilot standardization, 'company training' varies widely from operation to operation, hiring standards vary widely, FSI/Bombardier/Simuflight is a joke...if you pay you pass (and get a nice coffee mug), and everyone flies a whopping 30-40 hours a month...not a great way to be truly proficient. I'm not even going to get into maintenance, overbearing DOs or passengers.

....

You are pretty critical about FSI/Bombardier/SimuFlite. I notice you post no type ratings in a corporate jet. Are we to assume when you did all these things you were an SIC?

It might be better to write about things you know about. How many hours of ground school do you get in front of a computer instead of a live instructor now at your airline? And that is better how? How often are you checked (as compaired to the every 6 months the charter pilot completes a complete type rating check called a 293/297). The failure rate at FSI/Bombardier/Simuflite is very high for one group of pilots. Retired Air Line pilots. They seem to think much like you, they are airline pilots, this will be a piece of cake for them. Everyone will be so impressed they are airline pilots they will just hand them the type. But once they get into the course, it's to much to learn, to hard etc. They then try and attack the course as asking to much of them, only to find out it is more ground school and more sim hours than their airline course. The chekride is the same as the airline's (FAA required). Oh and the overall failure rate is higher than the airline for all pilots.

Kind of makes you wonder.

 

[Texasskicker]

To those who are typed in the CL-600

Does this aircraft have a movable stab? If it were out of position, would that affect their ability to rotate?

What do you think about wt and balance on this flight?

Darn happy everyone is okay!

Tex.

 

[LXJ31]

I just read the AIN report and thats the first thing I thought of. Crew rest. Was it the same crew? If it was the same crew, were they doing some sort of stand-up with the crew duty time?


EDIT: Something else, if they parked on one ramp overnight and then taxied to another for pax pick-up, does that imply they were on a live leg to TEB the night before? I'd have to think that getting fuel and catering at Millionair and then heading over to Atlantic that they are going to have to cough up a ramp fee to Atlantic. So, there would be no incentive to do that unless they brought pax in the night before.

 

[Bandit60]

I heard from someone that there was a crew change after the flight that arrived.

 

[Vortilon]

Jimbo,

You really think I'm typed on the SR71? Theres really no such thing as a type for that plane. You really think I'm a lav dumper? The profile is not my resume, but an attempt at humor.

I was hired as a Captain for my company and was very sucessful there....I'll leave it at that. I am typed in 3 different corporate aircraft. If you can't pass a Bombardier/Simuflite checkride someone should take your pulse...particularly recurrent. We did the same checkride profile over and over again for 3 days, then the checkride. The only variable was what circle you got. My recurrent as an FO is far more vigorous that I ever had as a "Captain". If I don't pass, I'm one step closer to losing my job. I don't get a coffee cup, thank you letter for attending training, nor my hand held throughout training....like most of their CUSTOMERS do.

I'm sure there are plenty of airline guys that come to the corporate side that come in with plenty of attitude. We had one at my company that needed a blanket party and embarassed the rest of us. I also met plenty of corporate guys that needed to tell me why they never wanted to be airline pilots within 5 minutes of meeting them, although I never asked. There are plenty of jerks in this business no matter where/what you fly.

Maybe retired airline pilots do have a higher failure rate but I think everyone realizes it harder to learn new things when you are over 60. Personally I think its an urban legend charter guys like to tell each other at the FBO to heal all the bruised egos.

And I wouldn't brag about meeting the same FAA requirements....the last I checked they said 70% was good enough.

 

[G100driver]

Jimbo,

I am typed in 3 different corporate aircraft. If you can't pass a Bombardier/Simuflite checkride someone should take your pulse...particularly recurrent. We did the same checkride profile over and over again for 3 days, then the checkride. The only variable was what circle you got.

Completely correct. I have seen complete loosers get type ratings after completions of these courses. They may fail once or twice, but they keep on testing until they pass. There is the occational wash out. The only one I ever knew could not fly out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Publishers]

No doubt he could have..... I am merely willing to wait until sufficient evidence is in where Vortilon condems a whole segment of the business.

 

[The Natural]

G200,

Thanks for the mature reply.

Actually I used to fly for a very good 135/91 operator who always tried to do things the right way, but it often took pressure to make it that way. I never had a problem standing up to my employer or delaying a flight to make something safe, but we all know people that have compromised their standards to get the job done. (or didn't have the experience or common sense to say "no"). Being a pilot for an on-demand charter operator is extrememly demanding and can be a lot of fun, especially when when you have a complicated day but make it happen for the customer. But every day you operate without a safety net, and this is where charter flying fails the traveling public. There are people out there that aren't cut out for it, and not everyone can be 100% every day.

Bizjet charter flying is simply not as safe as other avenues in aviation. Not much FAA oversight, lack of safety-minded, professional corporate cultures, lack of pilot standardization, 'company training' varies widely from operation to operation, hiring standards vary widely, FSI/Bombardier/Simuflight is a joke...if you pay you pass (and get a nice coffee mug), and everyone flies a whopping 30-40 hours a month...not a great way to be truly proficient. I'm not even going to get into maintenance, overbearing DOs or passengers.

That being said, the Fractionals run more like an airline and have better safety systems within the corporation...I wouldn't hesitate to put my family on a NetJets, Flex, or Options aircraft. Corporate flight departments are also better able to establish proper corporate cultures due to low turnover, more selective hiring, and close oversight. They tend to pay the best also, so they generally get the best to choose from.

I fly for a major airline, and I don't miss the charter flying one bit. Everyone I work with knows that no flight "needs to go ASAP" and any person in the system can put on the brakes in the name of safety. Its also comforting to know that if I have a bad day, there's a lot more safety built into the system that ensures I'm coming home for dinner.

Its too early to say what happened today...its a miracle nobody was killed. But I think we all know in our gut there's a good chance the crew will be culpable here. I'm glad you like your job, but I think with the growing popularity of Bizjet flying we're going to see a lot more of what happened today....unfortunately.

Be safe out there....

Generally speaking you are correct. The accident rate is higher for 135/corporate flying, but to group them all together and stamp them unsafe is unresonable. They are all such different entities with such different management styles, pilots, maintinence, and culture it would be like saying that all the airlines are the same, in the world; I'm sure you would agree is untrue, which would lower your air carrier safety record.

For instance euros and many airlines outside U.S. train their pilots from 0 time and put them on the line in 2 years; I can feel safe assuming you already know that.

The safety of 135/corporate is specific to that organization... its building blocks; management, pilots, and mechanics. I am the operator and pilot for a private organization of a brand new aircraft ('03) with top notch maintinence that specializes in my a/c type; and I can tell you as well, we dont need to go anywhere ASAP. I also know all my mechanics names and I have some of their home phone numbers too. And I am just one guy.

This gig is good enough to be my last stop. If it isnt and in the event I do apply to a major and get hired it wont be for the quality of flying. You cant tell me an old MD-80 going back and forth to from ORD to MIA 100x a year is more fun that not knowing where youre going next fly next week; then to end up flying 1,800 nm leg to land on a dirt strip in the bahamas.

No.. when/if I go to the majors it will be for quality of life, (ie money and time off) not flying. Nobody hangs up their G-suit after flying an F-16 or
citation X and says **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I cant wait to get in that airbus!!! (at least nobody I know) When you tell your kids or grand kids someday about your most memorable flying expiriences, its not going to be about all first class meals you ate for free or that flight attendant you almost nailed in frankort. It will probably be of pre-mundane cattle commuting.

The most dangerous part of the airlines (I think is that at least in the US)is that they take the best pilots in the world and give them the easiest **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing job. Which leads to complacency and boredom. Pretty soon your taking vitamin JD, (thats Jack Daniels) after your flight to keep things exciting; pretty soon your pushing the envelope.. When is the last time you heard of a corporate pilot flying drunk??? Really if you do know tell me I'm curious.

Airline flying has its satisfaction undoubtedly, a job well done especially with the weight of great responsiblity I can only imagine is very rewarding.

In conclusion, I am happy that you are pleased with your job, you probably are an accomplished pilot that has endured much to get to your comfortable perch, from where can look at all us corporate and 135 drivers and every now and then try to **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** on us. HAHA.. just kidding! maybe. We/I may try to join you, its nice up there, just dont pigeon hole your fellow pilot brothers.

After all my signature doesnt say:

__________________________
Friends dont let friends: Fly as a passenger for a commercial airline when the Captain is; worried about the money he owes the his 3 ex-wives, fightin a hang over and will probably sleep and wake up wondering is he's going to MIA or ORD.

Fly safe..

 

[seawings]

RE: LEVEL OF TRAINING FOR CORPORATE PILOTS
This may not be everyone’s experience, however, during my last recurrent at SimuFlite, and on one flight, we had a total hydraulic failure with a circling no flap landing. After my arms and legs quit quivering we departed again. This time, as we rotated, the two DU’s on the pilots side slowly faded to black. I quickly handed the flight over to the right seat, only to have his two DU’s fade slowly to black. We quickly engaged the autopilot, thinking there might be some help there as the small emergency gauges are never fun to fly (and the instructor failed the lights there too). The autopilot worked and the instructor asked what we planned to do and what was remaining. Technology being what it is we were able to determine all speeds, altitudes and set up an RNAV / VNAV approach back to the airport with the FMS’s. We broke out at 800’ with the runway insight. So I do not see corporate training as being a give away.

Oh…and no mug or tee-shirt for our efforts either.

 

[405]

Uh...

Oakum, you spelled "maneuver" wrong in post #100. Just wanted to clear that up.

Adios mofos.

 

[FN FAL]

Have you ever driven Hwy 46?

No...but I probably took a bus on that road. Does that count?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You are pretty critical about FSI/Bombardier/SimuFlite. I notice you post no type ratings in a corporate jet. Are we to assume when you did all these things you were an SIC?

It might be better to write about things you know about.*** How often are you checked (as compaired to the every 6 months the charter pilot completes a complete type rating check called a 293/297). They seem to think much like you, they are airline pilots, this will be a piece of cake for them.

Kind of makes you wonder.

Oh well, I am bored so what the heck,

Jim,

First, How would you know anything about the airlines? I don't see any airline types in your profile. Did you find all this out as a SIC at the airlines?

Second, Perhaps you should find out about what you are writing also.(Concerning your 6 month statements.)



As to FS, Simuflight etc. I can only draw from my own experience, but after 2 airlines, a few 135 operators, several types from both 121 and Corporate, and after having attended FS,Simuflt,and SimCom, for various airplanes. I have to agree with some of the posters comments about corporate types pretty much being gimmies. Some are better than others, but I have yet to do a corporate type that equals what I saw in the 121 operators.

However I have only been to three of the corporate type schools out there and only flown with 2 121 operators, so I hesitate to stroke any training regime with a broad brush. This is just what I have seen.

Corporate and 121 are two completly different animals with different operational requirements. It is hard to directly compare the two once you get out of the training enviroment and out flying the line. I have seen incredibly stupid stuff done by pilots in both camps. I do have to admit though, that I sometimes wonder why there are not more corporate jets stuffed in the ground. Running in and out of small airports you see a few corp guys do some really stupid things with airplanes. Kind of makes it tough on the guys that try to do the right thing, Had my boss ask one day why his buddy could get in and out of a short, snow covered runway with his airplane, and we couldn't with ours. The only answer I had for him was that his buddy and pilots were betting their lives that absolutly nothing on that airplane was going to fail on the take off roll, because if anything did, they had zero options except to kiss their butt goodbuy as an oaktree dismantled the airplane for them.

 

[Lead Sled]

RE: LEVEL OF TRAINING FOR CORPORATE PILOTS
This may not be everyone’s experience, however, during my last recurrent at SimuFlite, and on one flight, we had a total hydraulic failure with a circling no flap landing. After my arms and legs quit quivering we departed again. This time, as we rotated, the two DU’s on the pilots side slowly faded to black. I quickly handed the flight over to the right seat, only to have his two DU’s fade slowly to black. We quickly engaged the autopilot, thinking there might be some help there as the small emergency gauges are never fun to fly (and the instructor failed the lights there too). The autopilot worked and the instructor asked what we planned to do and what was remaining. Technology being what it is we were able to determine all speeds, altitudes and set up an RNAV / VNAV approach back to the airport with the FMS’s. We broke out at 800’ with the runway insight. So I do not see corporate training as being a give away. Oh…and no mug or tee-shirt for our efforts either.

Kudos to Seawings. I've been on the receiving end of 121, 135, and 91 turbojet training. The part 91 training provided by outfits such as FlightSafety and SimuFlite is, IMHO, as good as or better than what I experienced with a major U.S. air carrier. Please don't make the mistake of equating corporate and charter training or flying. The part 91 training that most bizjet operators get is far and away better than what any 135 operators are getting (even at FSI or SimuFlite). We flew our aircarft under part 135 for a year. (Thankfully, our owner saw the light and we no longer do it.) The first thing that I noticed when flying 135 was that our training went down the tubes - under part 91 we got a full 3 days in the sim. Under 135, it was 2 days in the sim practicing for the checkride. The 3rd sim session was the sim check. Under Parts 121 and 135, the minimum training requirements and standards became the goals and once they were met you were out on the line; after all, the airplane is the profit center. Under Part 91, the airplane typically isn't a profit source. As a Part 91 pilot, the company has paid for many "extra-curriculiar" courses such as weather radar training, aerobatics, altitude chamber training, etc. that most charter guys will seldom, if ever, see.

'Sled

 

[G100driver]

, Had my boss ask one day why his buddy could get in and out of a short, snow covered runway with his airplane, and we couldn't with ours. The only answer I had for him was that his buddy and pilots were betting their lives that absolutly nothing on that airplane was going to fail on the take off roll, because if anything did, they had zero options except to kiss their butt goodbuy as an oaktree dismantled the airplane for them.

Now for the $1 million dollar question: Did you boss get in the back of the airplane and thank his stars that he hired a guy to think.

Anyone can say, yes. You get paid to say, "no."