Test Questions

[bomberbubba]

Ok all you dispatchers......and pilots feel free to chime in.....lets see what you know! And you better be able to back it up!!!


Part 121 domestic operations. Destination alternate requirements


Senario: Flight scheduled to depart at 2020z and scheduled to arrive destination at 2159z


Destination forecast

KXXX 241858Z 241918 34012G22KT P6SM SCT025 BKN050
TEMPO 2024 6SM -SHRA OVC025
FM0000 33016G25KT P6SM SCT025 OVC035
TEMPO 0004 5SM -SHRASN OVC025
FM0600 34014G23KT P6SM BKN035 PROB30 0610-SHSN
FM1200 31015G25KT P6SM SCT040


Destination SA's

METAR KXXX 241745Z 05009KT 10SM BKN085 BKN120 14/06 A2985
METAR KXXX 241850Z 06008KT 10SM BKN100 12/06 A2987
METAR KXXX 241955Z 02021G25KT 10SM SCT065 10/05 A2986
METAR KXXX 242055Z 01021G27KT 10SM BKN012 OVC038 06/03 A2990
METAR KXXX 242155Z 36017G23KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC008 03/02 A2995
METAR KXXX 242255Z 36017G25KT 10SM OVC010 01/M01 A2999

Questions: 1. Is an alternate required for dispatch release of this flight?
2. Is an alternate required to be placed on this flight after it is enroute?
3. Is the dispatcher required to notify the capt of the changing conditions?
4. Is the capt required to notify dispatch of the changing conditions?
5. Is there a safety of flight issue with this flight?

If im missing any information for you to formulate your answers just ask and i will provide other details.

 

[atrdriver]

I'll try. 1. No. 2. No. 3. Yes. 4. No. 5. Possibly, depending on what runways are available ar the destination.

But, the 2155Z metar is unlikely, unless the obstruction to VIS is rain of some sort, as mist or fog is fairly unlikely with winds gusting to 23. Possible, but unlikely.

 

[atrdriver]

whoops....double post....

 

[bomberbubba]

With regards to your answer to #5. Destination has ILS Rwy 1 with 200 and 1/2 mins. No notams of any outages.

Also that 2155z hourly was actual wx conditions

 

[bomberbubba]

Come on people....I need your opinions

 

[bomberbubba]

I'll try. 1. No. 2. No. 3. Yes. 4. No. 5. Possibly, depending on what runways are available ar the destination.

But, the 2155Z metar is unlikely, unless the obstruction to VIS is rain of some sort, as mist or fog is fairly unlikely with winds gusting to 23. Possible, but unlikely.

OK atrdriver thanks for your answers. Now let me throw in that the first person to notice wx going down was actually the pilot on initial call to the tower about 1/2 hour earlier than when the 2155z wx became available to the dispatcher. Does that change your answers to #3 and #4?

 

[Blucher]

OK atrdriver thanks for your answers. Now let me throw in that the first person to notice wx going down was actually the pilot on initial call to the tower about 1/2 hour earlier than when the 2155z wx became available to the dispatcher. Does that change your answers to #3 and #4?

Where are you going with this? ATR is your only responder because he's correct. Would a courtesy call be in order from the pilot to the dispatcher to let them know for future flights heading there? Yes. Is it required? No. If the dispatcher knows about the weather prior to the flight getting there is he required to attempt to contact the crew? Yes...but perhaps he/she didn't see it, was busy getting another coffee, was on flightinfo.com. Again, what's your point? Was there volcanic ash involved or something? With what's been presented this doesn't even strike me as a particularly tricky approach.

-Blucher

 

[bomberbubba]

Blucher-Ok in my original post I said you better be able to back it up. So Blucher here is your chance to shine!! Why is it required for the dispatcher to notify the crew of the change in wx but NOT required for the pilot to notify the dispatcher??? Would you want to be notified if you were dispatched to an airport without an alternate and the sa wx enroute changed to 2 1/2 and BKN019??? Would you now want an alternate??? If you say YES your full of sh!t!! Usually when the crew gets the atis it is going to be more current than what is being presented in the hourly’s to the dispatcher. I guess my point is why would the crew or the dispatcher have to call the other at all??? Is there a safety of flight issue with this situation? Your right really nothing tricky about this approach. A freshly certificated instrument rated private pilot could probably handle this one! One would think that an airline transport pilot flying under 121 regs surely would have no problem with this one.....one would think!!! Here is the real issue: I had a capt ASAP me for not calling him up enroute to notify him of the wx that had changed and for not adding an alternate to him!! I’m not sure if you are familiar with the ASAP program or if your company is a member but how it is suppose to work is that it allows the crews to identify safety related issues without worrying about any repercussions within certain guidelines. I am trying to figure out why this capt felt that this situation constituted a safety issue for him to write up an ASAP report against me???? When working up the release and looking at the wx there was no alternate required and no where in the regs does it say that, "should the hourly wx change while a flight is enroute to now require an alternate as if the flight were being released, that one needs to be listed." It’s not like we can do air-refueling!!! Now if the wx went down to below landing minimums that would be a whole different ballgame! I really don’t want to get into what ifs....but rather the actual conditions for this situation. I have babbled on way to long...I guess I was just trying to get a consensus on what some other airplane drivers at other companies thought of this situation? Whether they thought that this capt had a legitimate grip?

P.S. The ASAP ERC (which is made up of a pilot union rep, faa rep, and a company rep) wanted to have the chief dispatcher take me off line for being incompetent. They also felt that I needed some recurrent training before being allowed to dispatch again. Obviously I feel this whole thing is bullsh!t!!! Everything with this flight was legal and in no way was there ever a safety of flight issue! If there was, then the pilot should have never continued to a destination that he thought was unsafe! 121.627

So here are my answers:
1.NO
2.NO
3.NO
4.NO
5.NO

Bomberbubba

 

[Blucher]

Ok

BomberB,

Understood. Personally, no, I wouldn't haven't gone after you the way that Captain did. As I said, yes, at our company per 121.601c, the dispatcher must notify the crew about any significant changes in weather. However, as I also said, who knows if the dispatcher (in this case you) even knew about the change (it would appear you didn't). Don't know what happens at your company, but I know at mine they don't just assign one flight per dispatcher, so generally those guys/gals have a full plate. The reason I say the crew doesn't HAVE to notify the dispatcher is because it looks like it was rapidly blowing through and it was coming up on the ATIS anyway for any future flights headed in there. Still, a courtesy call probably would have been in order from them to you. Frankly, I think you just ran into a real jerk of a captain. Sorry to hear it, please don't let that one guy taint how you feel about the rest of us. The vast majority of pilots out there absolutely cherish their dispatchers, and know how much nicer you make our lives for us. For this guy to go after you like this seems odd to me. If you can, look into his personal situation a bit and I bet you'll find the answer. Here are my top 3 guesses:
1) Wife/Husband leaving him/her
2) His/Her flying skills suck (this is THE most common reason for Cpt's to be jerks to FO's)
3) Generally miserable with his/her life
Ask around the grapevine at your company and I bet he/she's already got a rep. Good luck, and thank you (all dispatchers) for looking out for us.

-Blucher:beer:

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Maybe the captain was sick of being dispatched to KXXX with only 2200ish pounds of fuel.

And maybe when the captain called last time for an alternate, he had a dispatcher sigh and say "You don't need an alternate!" And the captain had to twist his arm just to add one. And the captain ended up going around numerous thunderstorms and was this close to declaring Min Fuel, even though he "didn't need an alternate."

Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away. Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?

(No, I'm not involved in any way.)

 

[bomberbubba]

Maybe the captain was sick of being dispatched to KXXX with only 2200ish pounds of fuel.

And maybe when the captain called last time for an alternate, he had a dispatcher sigh and say "You don't need an alternate!" And the captain had to twist his arm just to add one. And the captain ended up going around numerous thunderstorms and was this close to declaring Min Fuel, even though he "didn't need an alternate."

Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away. Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?

(No, I'm not involved in any way.)

Sounds like someone is a bit bitter with dispatch!! Ouch!! Sounds like you have a story of your own. I hope it didnt involve me!! Im in enough trouble already!

I take it your addressing this to me?? First off what does any of your ramblings have to do with the situation that I described? Obviously the capt agreed to the release without the alternate, since it was signed and he flew up to KXXX. That is one of our joint functions--that of signing the dispatch release only if we both agree that the flight can be made with safety. I guess Im lost on what your trying to say......Are you saying that this captian may have thought he needed an alternate for this particular flight but since he was given grief when calling previously he may have decided not to call this time??? Or is this just part of your story? I dont get what your trying to say??? You can ask a 100 Instrument student pilots to take a look at the wx presented and everyone of those pilots are going to say that an alternate is NOT required. I get your point on if there are t-storms in the vacinity of your destination that it may be prudent to throw on an alternate even though one isnt required by the forecasts or hourly's. But this wasnt the case in this circumstance. And the comment "Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away" must also be from your story. To answer your question: "Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?" I already said NO in a previous posting. Now to help you understand my reasoning ill post my own question..."Had you noticed the weather go below landing minimums, would you have called them and advised them? ABSOLUTELY!! At this point in the scenario the release can no longer be complied with. Now he is flying to a destination that is below landing minimums without any alternates. Now there is information that affects the safety of the flight!!! I release about 50 flights during my 10 hour shift. In those 50 releases not only do i have to work them up and try to get the computer to send them, but I am responsible for (1) Monitoring the progress of each flight(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and (3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released. In the situation that I presented I dont feel like there is any safety of flight issue! So again NO i would not have called them and advised them!! Not at 10SM BKN012 OVC038 or at 2 1/2SM BR OVC008!!!

You see this is the whole point with my example. Obviously the concensus to my 5 origional questions is:
#1 Definately NO.
#2 Definately NO.
#3 Definately YES according to pilots, obviously I disagree with this in this particular circumstance.
#4 Definately NO according to pilots, I have issues with this since #3 is YES.
#5 Definately NO.

At what point does this example become a safety issue that needs to be relayed to the crew? Is it as soon as the hourly wx drops to less than 2000 ft ceiling and less than 3 miles since the flight doesnt have an alternate or at some point in between this point and below landing mins???? Someone please be the almighty one and clarify this for me!!! And after you do...please reference it!!!! I will need the reference for my hearing.

Bomberbubba

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Bomber,

Yeah, you could say lately I've had a bone to pick with a few over in DX. Some are great, but some make it sound like they have to pay out of there own pocket for extra fuel.

Those same dispatchers are the same ones who carry-over alternates from the 630am flight on the 1030am flight, just because it was easier to keep clicking that mouse rather than take the alternate off the release.

Okay, enough of my turbine imitation.

I think this may be a bit of a loophole in the system. It's funny that if an alterate becomes "illegal" enroute, you need to conact and ammend, but if an alternate becomes needed enroute, there is nothing that I can find that says you need to add one.

My guess is that the captain felt that he would have no problem getting in. However, he probably felt that some of the safety buffers had failed. There's a whole lotta what-ifs, like you said. Could he continue? Yes. Had safety been affected? Yes, too.

I think some pilots see ASAP as a tool for fixing problems with the company. Like the Rarely Available Radio System. If it's ASAPed, the FAA sees the problem, and the company has to answer some questions.

Given the situation as you described it, I don't think you did anything wrong.

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Maybe the captain was sick of being dispatched to KXXX with only 2200ish pounds of fuel.

And maybe when the captain called last time for an alternate, he had a dispatcher sigh and say "You don't need an alternate!" And the captain had to twist his arm just to add one. And the captain ended up going around numerous thunderstorms and was this close to declaring Min Fuel, even though he "didn't need an alternate."

Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away. Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?

(No, I'm not involved in any way.)

Or, if you're low on fuel, you just land. An off-line diversion ought to get someone's attention that their shorting you on gas.

Dispatch chooses how much fuel they want to put on and the captain chooses not to crash.

Everyone has to live with their choices!

 

[bomberbubba]

Bomber,

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

Why dont you come in and sit with one of the dispatchers on your day off? I know I wouldn't mind and I dont think any of the others would either. Have you ever been into the SOC? I know we see big groups file in every once in a while but in the 7 years that I have been here I dont think I have ever seen one of you guys just sit with a dispatcher and see what goes on in our world. I find it funny that that dispatchers are required to go out and do observation rides on each type of equipment each year, but there is no requirement for the pilots to come in and sit with the dispatchers! I think you would be able to get most of your questions answered and then some.

I know some of you guys think we are the enemy.....we really are not! We are both on the same team trying to accomplish the same objectives. Im not saying that every flight is going to be perfect or that the dispatcher and pilot will always agree. Obviously this will never happen.

 

[atrdriver]

Why dont you come in and sit with one of the dispatchers on your day off? I know I wouldn't mind and I dont think any of the others would either. Have you ever been into the SOC? I know we see big groups file in every once in a while but in the 7 years that I have been here I dont think I have ever seen one of you guys just sit with a dispatcher and see what goes on in our world. I find it funny that that dispatchers are required to go out and do observation rides on each type of equipment each year, but there is no requirement for the pilots to come in and sit with the dispatchers! I think you would be able to get most of your questions answered and then some.

And why don't you guys come out and ride with us when the weather is crappy instead of CAVU days? I have NEVER had a dispatcher our for their annual rides when then wx has been even questionable. I certainly don't think that you guys are the enemy, but when I take the time to call and ask for something there is probably a reason for it, even if it is something that I can't always put into words. Example, I want to take an extra 1K of gas because of reroutes on the last 3 times I ran this trip. It's not going to bump payload, why question it?

 

[bomberbubba]

Well I cant speak for anyone but myself, but I have had my fair share of fun during my observations. I think the only reason why dispatchers dont want to go out on the crappy days is that they want to minimize the chances of getting stuck somewhere due to the wx or mechanicals. I can promise you that you will not get stuck in SOC if you were to visit! You will be able to leave at any time. Its VFR in here all the time!

MSP-ASE ended up going to GJT due to wx below mins in ASE. Had to wait for the bus with ASE pax to arrive GJT before we left back for MSP. added 5 hours to my observation.

MSP-MCW-FOD round trip. On decent into FOD right intake heat light came on in the decent for landing. Upon observation of nacelle found out that we ended up smoking the intake. No outstation maintenence. Unable to defer due to wx conditions. Ended up waiting for the overnight a/c to swap with. added 8 hours to my observation

Bomberbubba

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Bomber,

There was some venting in my posts, but those were serious questions. I don't know the answers.

I have been thru SOC, and I have seen releases put together. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[bomberbubba]

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

Does it have real-time monitoring of weather? No we do not have real-time monitoring of the weather......except that the dispatcher can call the awos and get current conditions....but not all awos's are real time wx either, some only report on the hour. All that we get up in dispatch are the hourlys and specials.

Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? No our system does not have that capability.

How often does it update? only hourlys or when specials are issued.

Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field? They both issue hourlys and specials when needed. I dont know of any difference in them.