Test Questions

[bomberbubba]

Maybe the captain was sick of being dispatched to KXXX with only 2200ish pounds of fuel.

And maybe when the captain called last time for an alternate, he had a dispatcher sigh and say "You don't need an alternate!" And the captain had to twist his arm just to add one. And the captain ended up going around numerous thunderstorms and was this close to declaring Min Fuel, even though he "didn't need an alternate."

Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away. Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?

(No, I'm not involved in any way.)

Sounds like someone is a bit bitter with dispatch!! Ouch!! Sounds like you have a story of your own. I hope it didnt involve me!! Im in enough trouble already!

I take it your addressing this to me?? First off what does any of your ramblings have to do with the situation that I described? Obviously the capt agreed to the release without the alternate, since it was signed and he flew up to KXXX. That is one of our joint functions--that of signing the dispatch release only if we both agree that the flight can be made with safety. I guess Im lost on what your trying to say......Are you saying that this captian may have thought he needed an alternate for this particular flight but since he was given grief when calling previously he may have decided not to call this time??? Or is this just part of your story? I dont get what your trying to say??? You can ask a 100 Instrument student pilots to take a look at the wx presented and everyone of those pilots are going to say that an alternate is NOT required. I get your point on if there are t-storms in the vacinity of your destination that it may be prudent to throw on an alternate even though one isnt required by the forecasts or hourly's. But this wasnt the case in this circumstance. And the comment "Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away" must also be from your story. To answer your question: "Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?" I already said NO in a previous posting. Now to help you understand my reasoning ill post my own question..."Had you noticed the weather go below landing minimums, would you have called them and advised them? ABSOLUTELY!! At this point in the scenario the release can no longer be complied with. Now he is flying to a destination that is below landing minimums without any alternates. Now there is information that affects the safety of the flight!!! I release about 50 flights during my 10 hour shift. In those 50 releases not only do i have to work them up and try to get the computer to send them, but I am responsible for (1) Monitoring the progress of each flight(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and (3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released. In the situation that I presented I dont feel like there is any safety of flight issue! So again NO i would not have called them and advised them!! Not at 10SM BKN012 OVC038 or at 2 1/2SM BR OVC008!!!

You see this is the whole point with my example. Obviously the concensus to my 5 origional questions is:
#1 Definately NO.
#2 Definately NO.
#3 Definately YES according to pilots, obviously I disagree with this in this particular circumstance.
#4 Definately NO according to pilots, I have issues with this since #3 is YES.
#5 Definately NO.

At what point does this example become a safety issue that needs to be relayed to the crew? Is it as soon as the hourly wx drops to less than 2000 ft ceiling and less than 3 miles since the flight doesnt have an alternate or at some point in between this point and below landing mins???? Someone please be the almighty one and clarify this for me!!! And after you do...please reference it!!!! I will need the reference for my hearing.

Bomberbubba

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Bomber,

Yeah, you could say lately I've had a bone to pick with a few over in DX. Some are great, but some make it sound like they have to pay out of there own pocket for extra fuel.

Those same dispatchers are the same ones who carry-over alternates from the 630am flight on the 1030am flight, just because it was easier to keep clicking that mouse rather than take the alternate off the release.

Okay, enough of my turbine imitation.

I think this may be a bit of a loophole in the system. It's funny that if an alterate becomes "illegal" enroute, you need to conact and ammend, but if an alternate becomes needed enroute, there is nothing that I can find that says you need to add one.

My guess is that the captain felt that he would have no problem getting in. However, he probably felt that some of the safety buffers had failed. There's a whole lotta what-ifs, like you said. Could he continue? Yes. Had safety been affected? Yes, too.

I think some pilots see ASAP as a tool for fixing problems with the company. Like the Rarely Available Radio System. If it's ASAPed, the FAA sees the problem, and the company has to answer some questions.

Given the situation as you described it, I don't think you did anything wrong.

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Maybe the captain was sick of being dispatched to KXXX with only 2200ish pounds of fuel.

And maybe when the captain called last time for an alternate, he had a dispatcher sigh and say "You don't need an alternate!" And the captain had to twist his arm just to add one. And the captain ended up going around numerous thunderstorms and was this close to declaring Min Fuel, even though he "didn't need an alternate."

Plus, you've got two good alternates 15 minutes away. Had you noticed the weather change, would you have called them and advised them?

(No, I'm not involved in any way.)

Or, if you're low on fuel, you just land. An off-line diversion ought to get someone's attention that their shorting you on gas.

Dispatch chooses how much fuel they want to put on and the captain chooses not to crash.

Everyone has to live with their choices!

 

[bomberbubba]

Bomber,

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

Why dont you come in and sit with one of the dispatchers on your day off? I know I wouldn't mind and I dont think any of the others would either. Have you ever been into the SOC? I know we see big groups file in every once in a while but in the 7 years that I have been here I dont think I have ever seen one of you guys just sit with a dispatcher and see what goes on in our world. I find it funny that that dispatchers are required to go out and do observation rides on each type of equipment each year, but there is no requirement for the pilots to come in and sit with the dispatchers! I think you would be able to get most of your questions answered and then some.

I know some of you guys think we are the enemy.....we really are not! We are both on the same team trying to accomplish the same objectives. Im not saying that every flight is going to be perfect or that the dispatcher and pilot will always agree. Obviously this will never happen.

 

[atrdriver]

Why dont you come in and sit with one of the dispatchers on your day off? I know I wouldn't mind and I dont think any of the others would either. Have you ever been into the SOC? I know we see big groups file in every once in a while but in the 7 years that I have been here I dont think I have ever seen one of you guys just sit with a dispatcher and see what goes on in our world. I find it funny that that dispatchers are required to go out and do observation rides on each type of equipment each year, but there is no requirement for the pilots to come in and sit with the dispatchers! I think you would be able to get most of your questions answered and then some.

And why don't you guys come out and ride with us when the weather is crappy instead of CAVU days? I have NEVER had a dispatcher our for their annual rides when then wx has been even questionable. I certainly don't think that you guys are the enemy, but when I take the time to call and ask for something there is probably a reason for it, even if it is something that I can't always put into words. Example, I want to take an extra 1K of gas because of reroutes on the last 3 times I ran this trip. It's not going to bump payload, why question it?

 

[bomberbubba]

Well I cant speak for anyone but myself, but I have had my fair share of fun during my observations. I think the only reason why dispatchers dont want to go out on the crappy days is that they want to minimize the chances of getting stuck somewhere due to the wx or mechanicals. I can promise you that you will not get stuck in SOC if you were to visit! You will be able to leave at any time. Its VFR in here all the time!

MSP-ASE ended up going to GJT due to wx below mins in ASE. Had to wait for the bus with ASE pax to arrive GJT before we left back for MSP. added 5 hours to my observation.

MSP-MCW-FOD round trip. On decent into FOD right intake heat light came on in the decent for landing. Upon observation of nacelle found out that we ended up smoking the intake. No outstation maintenence. Unable to defer due to wx conditions. Ended up waiting for the overnight a/c to swap with. added 8 hours to my observation

Bomberbubba

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Bomber,

There was some venting in my posts, but those were serious questions. I don't know the answers.

I have been thru SOC, and I have seen releases put together. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[bomberbubba]

Questions for you: With all that space-age technology you guys have, does it have real-time monitoring of weather? Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? How often does it update? Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field?

Does it have real-time monitoring of weather? No we do not have real-time monitoring of the weather......except that the dispatcher can call the awos and get current conditions....but not all awos's are real time wx either, some only report on the hour. All that we get up in dispatch are the hourlys and specials.

Can it look at the AWOS data and update them constantly? No our system does not have that capability.

How often does it update? only hourlys or when specials are issued.

Does a towered field update less often than an uncontrolled field? They both issue hourlys and specials when needed. I dont know of any difference in them.