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Teamsters vs ALPA

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The staffers drive the organization. Another prbplem is the IBT represents so many different types of labor. Which isn't really bad, but when you go discuss pilot issues the truck drivers look at you like you a princess complianing her throne cushion is too soft.

The netjet guys had to create thier own local......
 
Teamsters supported GoJets management in defeating ALPA's single carrier petition filed on behalf of Trans States. Any "union" that sides with management to support alter ego replacement job transfers should not exist IMHO.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Any "union" that sides with management to support alter ego replacement job transfers should not exist IMHO.
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Fins, that would include ALPA would it not? After all, GoJets is a direct result of USAirways miguided scope language and the law of unintended consequences.
 
Looks like you won that volley

Fair and square

But don't get careless, Merchant!

I'm everywhere.
 
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JoeMerchant said:
Fins, that would include ALPA would it not? After all, GoJets is a direct result of USAirways miguided scope language and the law of unintended consequences.
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GoJet is not the result of the USAir scope language. AAA's scope is only the excuse that was used to screw over a unionized pilot group and transfer their jobs. If the AAA scope didn't exist, then Hulas would have found a different excuse. You can try to blame ALPA for all of your problems, John, but it just doesn't hold water.
 
PCL_128 said:
GoJet is not the result of the USAir scope language. AAA's scope is only the excuse that was used to screw over a unionized pilot group and transfer their jobs. If the AAA scope didn't exist, then Hulas would have found a different excuse.
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You're making Fins' argument for him.

GoJet is not the result of the USAir scope language...If the AAA scope didn't exist, then Hulas would have found a different excuse.
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It amazes me how you can hold two diametrically opposed opinions in the same paragraph. An annoying characteristic of ALPA leadership.
 
Fact was ALPA tried to do the right thing at GoJets.

Teamsters shot them down.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Fins, that would include ALPA would it not? After all, GoJets is a direct result of USAirways miguided scope language and the law of unintended consequences.
Click to expand...
Yes - although I think the consequences of mainline scope changes were intentional, as is documented by the "bargaining credits" recieved for flying being performed by another work group.

We agree. But given the choice of Teamsters and ALPA, Teamsters was more blatant in their self interest.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Teamsters supported GoJets management in defeating ALPA's single carrier petition filed on behalf of Trans States.
Click to expand...

Maybe I need some guidance here so let's rewind.

Are you talking about single carrier as in who represents Trans States and GoJet or was ALPA actually trying to combine the lists?
 
Yes.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

The part of this that really sucks (can't think of a better word) is that now mainline scope clauses can be used as a valid reason to deny single carrier petitions, which was a good tool for unions to use in stopping alter ego.

Candidly, the value of union representation is diminished to nearly nothing in the world of unrestricted alter ego competition. But I still prefer ALPA to Teamsters. ALPA trashing my end of the profession was done in a terribly wrongheaded effort to save the pre-deregulation style mainline contracts. ALPA completely failed, but at least they had some method to their madness. Teamsters on the other hand worked to subvert one of the few tools remaining to fight alter ego only so they could sign up GoJets. In balance Teamsters really did something unforgiveable.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Yup...its all about leadership....both the officers and the members..
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So it's not so much ALPA, rather it is the local leadership and the membership. NetJets, Horizon, UPS and SWA are the "crown jewels" right now. Not a single one is ALPA. In fact, American has done better than most of it's peers, again not ALPA.

Meanwhile, on the ALPA regional front, some very strong local leaderships have suffered tremendous losses. ALG, PDT, ACA, CMR, and MSA had very strong local groups. Without some "brand scope" protections, even the strongest local leadership and pilot group will be left hanging in the wind.....
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
The staffers drive the organization. Another prbplem is the IBT represents so many different types of labor. Which isn't really bad, but when you go discuss pilot issues the truck drivers look at you like you a princess complianing her throne cushion is too soft.

The netjet guys had to create thier own local......
Click to expand...

On the otherside of the coin, when a teamster pilot group stikes, those same truck drivers stop making deliveries.... they don't cross picket lines PERIOD! ALPA groups will pick up stiking carriers passengers and aircraft as long is it doesn't meet some narrow definition of "stuck work" (ie CMR strike).
 
PCL_128 said:
GoJet is not the result of the USAir scope language. AAA's scope is only the excuse that was used to screw over a unionized pilot group and transfer their jobs. If the AAA scope didn't exist, then Hulas would have found a different excuse. You can try to blame ALPA for all of your problems, John, but it just doesn't hold water.
Click to expand...

The GoJet certificate had to be formed to allow TSA to fly 70-90 seaters for America West. Yes Hulas then used it to screw over the TSA pilots, however the certificate, like Freedom, was initially created to circumvent bad mainline scope language.
 
PCL_128 said:
Yeah, two RJDC drones thinking alike. Didn't see that coming. :rolleyes:
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Kinda like die-hard ALPA chest thumpers.....

"ALPA has great legal and aeromedical"
"ALPA has great resources"
"If you give more money to ALPA PAC, these problems will be solved"
"If we had a Democrat in the White House, these problems will be solved"
"The ASA/CMR/DAL PID was a seniority grab"

Wash, rinse, repeat......
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Yes - although I think the consequences of mainline scope changes were intentional, as is documented by the "bargaining credits" recieved for flying being performed by another work group.

We agree. But given the choice of Teamsters and ALPA, Teamsters was more blatant in their self interest.
Click to expand...


I agree Fins, but the unfortunate reality is this has now become an industry that is controlled by "self interest". While Teamsters was more blatant about it, ALPA is more secretive in it's self interest. ALPA can't even admit that it has an obvious conflict of interest. The teamsters on the other hand admits that it avoids this type of conflict of interest.
 
JoeMerchant said:
So it's not so much ALPA, rather it is the local leadership and the membership. NetJets, Horizon, UPS and SWA are the "crown jewels" right now. Not a single one is ALPA.
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Actually, the best contract industry-wide right now is the FedEx agreement. An ALPA contract, by the way, that passed by over 90%.
 
PCL_128 said:
Actually, the best contract industry-wide right now is the FedEx agreement. An ALPA contract, by the way, that passed by over 90%.
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Agreed, but not because they are ALPA. They did quite well before they joined ALPA. There is much more that goes into it than being ALPA or not.

FedEx is making large amounts of money, which helps when you go to negotiate for a piece of the pie. This is why I think a pro-business govt. is better than an anti-business govt. In fact, one could argue that FedEx has benefited greatly from free trade and globalization.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Agreed, but not because they are ALPA. They did quite well before they joined ALPA.
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Then why did they come back, John? The pilots at FedEx derisively refer to the FPA as the "student council." The FPA was largely a joke.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Agreed, but not because they are ALPA. They did quite well before they joined ALPA. There is much more that goes into it than being ALPA or not.

FedEx is making large amounts of money, which helps when you go to negotiate for a piece of the pie. This is why I think a pro-business govt. is better than an anti-business govt. In fact, one could argue that FedEx has benefited greatly from free trade and globalization.
Click to expand...

Come on, you can't have it both ways. When Delta, USAirways, and United get screwed it's ALPA's fault (and has nothing to do with bankruptcy), but when FedEx gets a good contract ALPA has nothing to do with it? It's hard to take your opinions seriously when you are so blatantly inconsistent.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Kinda like die-hard ALPA chest thumpers.....

"ALPA has great legal and aeromedical"
"ALPA has great resources"
"If you give more money to ALPA PAC, these problems will be solved"
"If we had a Democrat in the White House, these problems will be solved"
"The ASA/CMR/DAL PID was a seniority grab"

Wash, rinse, repeat......
Click to expand...
Our dues go towards new excuses as to why nothing is being done. Thats all I have ever heard from a Union guy, excuses. JC has a nice lavish seat. He gets to drop all his line flying, for "Union Duties". Then picks up day off flying for time and a half.
Yeah, it's in the contract that he can do it. But to do it for 9 years, don't you think thats abuse of the system? Of course not, you're a die hard ALPA guy. Of course you'll make up some excuse as to why it's OK to do what he is doing.
 
DX Rick said:
Our dues go towards new excuses as to why nothing is being done. Thats all I have ever heard from a Union guy, excuses. JC has a nice lavish seat. He gets to drop all his line flying, for "Union Duties". Then picks up day off flying for time and a half.
Yeah, it's in the contract that he can do it. But to do it for 9 years, don't you think thats abuse of the system? Of course not, you're a die hard ALPA guy. Of course you'll make up some excuse as to why it's OK to do what he is doing.
Click to expand...

Not me.... I agree with you. There was a time when JC "got it", then he became a politician... much like most people who stay involved with ALPA...

There is a difference between a leader and a politician...
 
JoeMerchant said:
Agreed, but not because they are ALPA. They did quite well before they joined ALPA. There is much more that goes into it than being ALPA or not.

FedEx is making large amounts of money, which helps when you go to negotiate for a piece of the pie. This is why I think a pro-business govt. is better than an anti-business govt. In fact, one could argue that FedEx has benefited greatly from free trade and globalization.
Click to expand...





That's funny...SkyWest is, and has been making "large amounts of money" for a long time and yet SAPA was unable to "negotiate" more than a 0% raise for EMB pilots and a sad 1%(for a 101/2 year time period) for the rest of us!!
By your own argument, it seems we would have done better being ALPA??!!!!
 
JoeMerchant said:
Not me.... I agree with you. There was a time when JC "got it", then he became a politician... much like most people who stay involved with ALPA...

There is a difference between a leader and a politician...
Click to expand...

There should be a time frame where our MEC has to be cycled though every 2-3 years. Do your time, get out. More guys would probably be active within the union. Knowing that years after year, some guy like Andy Hughes and JC is sitting in office, doing nothing but collect a fat check, make bad decisions for the group, and golf outings with management.

I have heard CP's get slammed for being "company" guys, but it seems like our MEC is closer with management, than the CP's are.
 

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