tdturbo strikes again

[TonyC]

I hate to be the one to say it but go ahead TDTurbo, go fly your mighty 182 into icing conditions. Flaunt the reg's and learn as much as you can about "airflow degredation" with your 10,000 hour CFI. Go forth and load up you new Twin Star with ice so it looks like a popsicle as it falls out of the sky.

Do you suppose there's some way you could let us know the registration number first, though, so we can forward an archive of this and a few other threads to the NTSB at the appropriate time? Many times the record contains a plethora of facts, but you just can't know what the pilot was thinking at the time. This information would be vitally important in determining the Primary Causal Factor.

 

[avbug]

Avbug most definitely is NOT phil. Nice try, though.

TD has virtually a one hundred percent success record when it comes to being exactly wrong...never close to right, so this is quite perfect. My bed, and lie in it, you say? Is that a way of saying "balls in your court?" Very well, then.

There is no risk in skydiving, it's perfectly safe, just ask avbug. Then tell that to the hundreds/thousands killed doing it because it was "necessary" to jump.

AB has deteriorated to ridiculous retorts of meritless banter.

You made your bed AB, now sleep in it.

Hundreds and thousands killed doing it, you say? Hundreds and thousands killed each year? Decade? Since the sport began? Are you merely spitballing, there, or do you have some statistics to back up your wild ideas, this time?

Save yourself the embarassment. You can visit the numbers at the United States Parachute Association web site at the following address: http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm

You'll note, if you do the math, that this boils down to 30 fatalities on the average in any given year, over the last fourteen years of statistics. Put up against that, following various parts of that site, we find a one year quote for only USPA members making skydives, of a total of 2,151,228 skydives recorded. Do a little math, and you'll find that's one fatality for every 717,076 skydives...and that's only counting USPA members. At least as many skydives take place as training and intro jumps, and tandems, further making skydiving one of the safer things you can do for fun or business.

A far cry from your hundreds and thousands of fatalities (presumably yearly, though you failed to quanitify your wild-ass guess) you cited.

As for telling it to those who have died doing sport jumps...nobody ever said it's necessary. Every participant in a sport skydive understands that a potential for failure to act, and act properly, may be injury or death. Everybody is a volunteer.

A popular shirt some time ago in skydiving circles had a sperm wearing a parachute rig jumping out the door of a twotter. The caption said, "remember when sex was safe, and skydiving was dangerous?"

Perhaps next you'll cite sex as an unnecessary risk...much more appropriate to your snide "you've made your bed, now lie in it," comment, don't you think?

See the post about the guy who was killed when he collided with the plane he jumped out of.

Actually, if you'd read the thread, you'd know I was one of the posters. I jumped DeLand, I liked it there. I was excited to be offered a tour of two different parachute and gear manufacturing plants right nearby, as well as hands on instruction from a factory test jumper in packing and company parachute practices (thanks, PD!) for over three hours, all for the price of buying him a beer. I even have a DeLand patch sewn on my gearbag for one of my sport rigs.

I don't recall any need to justify one's own recreation, yet I'd hardly term skydivnig an "unnecessary risk." Enjoyable passtime, relaxing experience, pleasant days, blue skies, whatever...but unnecessary risk? What risk? There's probably more risk crossing the street..

But turbo, really, why stop there? You're wrong about virtually everything, and you did ask me to lie in the bed that you threw down for me, so let's press on. Dan Poynter has written the bible(s) on skydiving and parachuting, including references for military and every other kind of parachuting. He is far and away the authority, and his books the authority, on parachuting, jumping, skydiving, payload delivery, etc. By comparison, looking at Dan Poynter's "A Skydiver's Handbook," (6th edition), we see a few of the following earlier statistics:

1991 121,900 people made 2,440,000 civilian jumps in the US.
25,000 active skydivers average approx. 100 to 125 jumps/year.
Approx. 97,000 students graduate the First Jump Course and make a jump each year.
Approx. 300,000 student jumps/year, 1.9 million experienced skydiver jumps/year. 1987 29 fatal parachuting accidents in the US.
Yielding a fatality rate of 1/75,000 jumps, or 1/3,800 participants. Comparisons Hang Gliding: 1/2,308 hang gliding flights.
Accidental Deaths: 1/2,582 (91,000 out of total US pop. of 235 million in 1983) In a recent year over 140 people died scuba diving, 856 bicycling, over 7,000 drowned, 1154 died of bee stings, and 80 by lightning. In 1982, 43,990 people were killed in highway accidents, 1,171 boating fatalities, 235 airline deaths, and 1,164 light aircraft general aviation fatalities.
Student injuries run about 2%. So out of 90,000 students, 1,800 can expect to be injured.

Seems that routine regular accidental deaths consume more lives on a statistically levelled comparison basis than skydiving does...at a much, much higher rate. Compare one death out of every seventy five thousand jumps from Poynter (or one death for every thirty eight hundred participants) to the national average for plan jane accidental deaths...one in every two thousand five hundred folks out there in the general population. You've got a higher chance getting killed accidentally out of the clear blue on any given day than being an active skydiver, and the chances are that whatever is going to kill you certainly isn't the parachuting, but every day life. Go figure. More folks get killed by lightening every year than parachuting. Come to think of it, for every jumper killed in the stats above, 53.4 general aviation pilots died.

You're a general aviation pilot, TD. Who is taking on the greater unnecessary risk, then? Stop flapping your gums and drop it, already. You'd do far better to shut up and appear the fool you are than to keep this up and remove all doubt. Really.

Do you suppose there's some way you could let us know the registration number first, though, so we can forward an archive of this and a few other threads to the NTSB at the appropriate time? Many times the record contains a plethora of facts, but you just can't know what the pilot was thinking at the time. This information would be vitally important in determining the Primary Causal Factor.

Sort of like that Tom Cruise sleeper, what was it? Minority report. Generate the statistics and find the cause or culprit before the accident. I like it. The truth is, though that often we really can see it coming. I watched one last summer, and said not five minutes before it happened that this individual was going to make a gear up landing. Within five minutes he was sliding sideways in his mooney down the runway with that beer-can grating sound that's all too familiar. Apparently that person was the only one who couldnt' see it coming, and he happened to be one to whom you could never tell a thing...but he survived, and was cavalier about it enough to go try it again...the gene pool is self-clensing.

 

[TDTURBO]

You just wasted an entire page of dribble proving my point, thanks AB.

I said in the above post that taking risks, unnecessary or not is part of life.

I just used skydiving as one of many. So if you want to avoid risk, live in a cave. This comment was directed at Phil, not you.

Flying is risky so is driving and everything else, either live with it or have it control you, I choose to live life and not worry about everything that can kill me.

Sure I do my best to mitigate risk but certain things are out of you're control.

You seriously need to get a life AB, all you do is attack posters if you disagree with them.

Go find a hobby or something, try Yoga, Square Dancing, anything.. Get some counseling, you are not the end all in aviation but act as such.

I know I am dangerous at times, do dumb things, respond before thinking clearly. The problem is you don't.

Case in point.........What Risk? In skydiving? Are you kidding?

I read that site and the disclaimer at the bottom of the stats stated that only certain DZ's report accidents to that site, so my estimate of hundreds or thousands that have been killed skydiving is correct.



I quote directly from the site you note, " No official organization rates the safety of skydiving centers. Compiling a list of accidents by skydiving center would simply indicate the busiest, most active centers. Drop zones that abide by the rules can still be places where individual jumpers have accidents".


Even if 30/yr were killed, multiply that by how many years people have been doing it and see what you get. That's a lot of people. I used to jump, for several years, it is safe most of the time but like anything else it has inherent risks. So what? Life is a risk, get a life will ya?
Leave it be, nobody cares, just refrain from making comments like there is no risk in skydiving.

Just listen to yourself, I admit what I did was risky but I learned from it and won’t do it again, besides the plane I am getting is known ice.

Save the lecture on it being justas risky because Darwin candidates fly into ice thing the TKS will save them, just like the parachute in the Cirrus.

Do you really care if I live or die?

You don’t even believe in God, maybe you should start worrying about your afterlife instead of what happened to me. I am not afraid of dying, I will be saved. I take everything in stride, if God wants to take me out, he’ll do it when he feels it’s time, I don’t believe I have much say in the matter. You my friend need a friend because your not making any over here with your attitude and I bet you have few in real life, that’s why you live on a computer. I have nothing against you, I wish you no harm, just tone it down and quit the name calling, it only makes you look childish. It is unbecoming of someone of your stature. You are a professional as I, we are in different fields but none-the-less professionals.

You have caused me great distress and sucked me into a childish exchange in an earlier thread that I have since apologized and regret.

You should do the same and leave this behind you, you’ll enjoy life a lot better. I may not be the best and smartest person on earth, but I won’t be baited into another childish exchange with you ever again. You are too stubborn to admit fault of any kind, and that my friend IS dangerous.

God Bless Avbug:

 

[Moonfly201]

Just listen to yourself, I admit what I did was risky but I learned from it and won’t do it again, besides the plane I am getting is known ice.

Yeah ... great decision. K-ice takes ALL the risk out of flying in ice. Find it, stay in it, flip the lever, lose it and learn a lot.

After reading through five pages of this krap I have yet to pick up on what exactly you have learned.

Sitting in a 182, with the view out the windshield obscured and the airspeed decreasing until the point at which someone showed the first sign of sanity and decended into warmer air is NOT a learning experience. Unless you are foolish enough to believe it is.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Actually, if you'd read the thread

I did read the thread.

you'd know I was one of the posters. I jumped DeLand, I liked it there. I was excited to be offered a tour of two different parachute and gear manufacturing plants right nearby, as well as hands on instruction from a factory test jumper in packing and company parachute practices (thanks, PD!) for over three hours, all for the price of buying him a beer. I even have a DeLand patch sewn on my gearbag for one of my sport rigs.

Ok, this whole paragraph doesn't address your comment you made. It just tells me you met some cool guys and had a good time.

Spoken like a true, uninformed wuffo. What risk?

Just so we are on the same page.

You have to admit there is a risk in skydiving (just like walking across the street).

I don't feel it is an unnecessary risk. It just depends on how much risk is good for you.

I hope to actually partake in skydiving in the near future. Too busy at the moment with training and don't have the cash.

 

[TonyC]

You just wasted an entire page of dribble proving my point, thanks AB.

Did you mean "drivel," Doctor?










.

 

[avbug]

Do you really care if I live or die?

Believe it or not, I do. Else I wouldn't have spent the time with you that I have. If you make the choice to go hurt yourself by blatent ignorance or foolish action, however, I cannot help you.

Flying is risky so is driving and everything else, either live with it or have it control you, I choose to live life and not worry about everything that can kill me.

An admirable attitude, but in your own special case, a dangerous one. A PIC must consider all that might hurt or hill him or her, and plan to avoid such conditions. One doesn't rely upon the big sky theory for traffic avoidance. One doesn't fly into storms freely on the assumption that one probably will be okay, or carry just enough fuel to make it, or forgo briefings because one need not worry about what lies beyond. After all, it was okay last time, and one has an engine analyzer and a handheld GPS...and there's warm air below. What could go wrong?

You seriously need to get a life AB, all you do is attack posters if you disagree with them.

Providing a response with a page full of statistic, fact, and evidence is not attacking a poster. Attacking a poster is something like...

Avbug, you better lay off that crack pipe,...Like I said before and many before me, arguing on the internet is like the special Olympics, if you win you're still retarded...

Still, you haven't learned. You responded to one poster by suggesting that only inexperienced pilots should avoid ice:

In no way do I condone low time pilots fly in active airmets for ice. You take baby steps through distance, minimums, winds and range. There are no hard rules, not here at least.

Remembering of course that the subject on the ice, at least, involved an aircraft with no ice protection, and you holding out the mentality that an airmet forecasting ice doesn't legally prevent you from flying your unprotected aircraft in those conditions. You were wrong, clearly, yet you continue to expound the virtues of this act, and then go on in the above quote to suggest that with experience, it's okay. First of all, you have no experience, and second of all, it's not okay. Third, yes, there are hard rules, and one of them is that an aircraft with no ice protection, not approved for flight into ice, doesnt' go into known ice...that would be forecast ice, reported ice, or conditions known to be conducive to the formation of ice. I believe more than enough has been said there (yet you keep defending the practice...why??).

I know I am dangerous at times, do dumb things, respond before thinking clearly. The problem is you don't.

That one is confusing. You're berating me for not doing dumb things, being dangerous at times, or responding before thinking clearly. Interesting. And you find this a problem?

I read that site and the disclaimer at the bottom of the stats stated that only certain DZ's report accidents to that site, so my estimate of hundreds or thousands that have been killed skydiving is correct.

No, not even close. Some outlaw DZ's aren't USPA sites (and that's okay), but the stats are accurate. Further, I quoted other sources, including the bible of the industry which expanded the statistics to more years and topics...a little effort and research will do the same for you if you care to lift a finger to find out. You used skydiving as an example of unnecessary risk, but those same numbers showed that you're some fifty times more likely to die in a general aviation airplane (proably a whole lot higher for you) than you are skydiving. You talk about unnecessary risk, use skydiving as an example, but engage in and spout off regarding flying light airplanes...something 50 times more likely to hurt you. You have less chance dying in a skydiving accident as an active skydiver than you do an ordinary run of the mill accident being joe anybody in our society today, in any given year.

Besides...who ever said that skydiving isn't necessary? Water, air, food, skydiving.

Ok, this whole paragraph doesn't address your comment you made. It just tells me you met some cool guys and had a good time.

That's true.

Just listen to yourself, I admit what I did was risky but I learned from it and won’t do it again, besides the plane I am getting is known ice.

Sounds like you see that as a justification to go flying in ice. You're buying a light airplane. I don't care if it has "known ice." Now you can go legally strip the paint off the sides of the airplane as they props shed the ice, and kill yourself. A long time ago I flew for a company that had a couple of Cessna 210's that were used for little odd jobs, to support the fleet. They had some light twins, as well. I didn't care to push weather or do much night or instrument work in the 210's, and certainly not go into ice...they ought one that had dual generators, and some protection on the wings and prop, and made it known that now the 210 could go into weather and ice. Nope. Gimmicks and gear don't justify lapses in judgement.

We've had the discussion before, but flying is about eliminating risk...you seem to feel that you're invulnerable until that time that God decides to take you out of the picture, as you state here:

I take everything in stride, if God wants to take me out, he’ll do it when he feels it’s time, I don’t believe I have much say in the matter.

Wrong attitude, by a long shot. That attitude alone, makes you very, very dangerous. Complacency kills, so does apathy. You may not have to wait for God to "take you out" if you take such a carefree attitude. You'll beat Him to the punch.

You don’t even believe in God, maybe you should start worrying about your afterlife instead of what happened to me. I am not afraid of dying, I will be saved.

That was out of the blue, unwarranted, and like every other thing you've said so far here or on other sites...untrue and wrong. This is an aviation thread, however, and we can leave the bible thumping and salvation for some other venue.

Perhaps you need to grow a healthy fear of dying in order to correct your attitude, before you get yourself or someone else killed.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

what a complete waste of space...boys go to your corners

 

[TurboS7]

Nothing wrong with flying into ice intentionally to get experience as long as you have a good out. He did with warm air below. He learned something that might well get him out of trouble one day. While all you soothsayers are yelling and screaming when you get in ice some day you will be doing the dumb thing. TDTurbo will be cool and doing the right thing, because he has been there and done that.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Actually, if you'd read the thread, you'd know I was one of the posters. I jumped DeLand, I liked it there. I was excited to be offered a tour of two different parachute and gear manufacturing plants right nearby, as well as hands on instruction from a factory test jumper in packing and company parachute practices (thanks, PD!) for over three hours, all for the price of buying him a beer. I even have a DeLand patch sewn on my gearbag for one of my sport rigs.

DeLand rocks! Scott Miller himself taught me to pack back in 2001!

[/hijack]