Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[TapitLight]

Quick question...

In KSBN this morning. Tower calling 1000RVR on runway 27L. Look at the back of our Jepp 10-9 page to find airport takeoff mins. Runway 27L has no HIRL or CL so the chart lists the minimum visibility for takeoff is 1600 RVR per adaquate visual reference. So we hold our taxi out. Meanwhile two Pinnacle CRJ 200's taxi our and state that they only need 1000 RVR for takeoff, they both depart.


Does Pinnacle have different charts than I do? Is there any way that Pinnacle's ops specs are allowing them to go below the chart's published takeoff mins?

Thanks, it was bugging us all morning.

 

[McNugent]

i know they dont use Jepp. It's some jacked up free crap that they have. Maybe it gives them different numbers.

 

[Smoked Toilet]

Jepps aren't controlling. Refer to your ops specs for your airlines' minimums. Then look at the equipment on the runway. If I remember correctly, 27L has centerline lights and the whole works - which probably means 5/5/5 or 6/6/6.

 

[TapitLight]

Actually the Jepps are controling. We are authorized at 6/6/6 as long is approved for that airport. If an airport lists 9/9/9 then we can only go down that low. As for SBN, the 10-9 chart is very basic. There is only one RVR report and the only takeoff mins are published under adequate visual reference,
1600 RVR or 1/4 sm.

 

[ultrarunner]

We have 500/500/500 rvr.

 

[rustypigeon]

Actually the Jepps are controling. We are authorized at 6/6/6 as long is approved for that airport. If an airport lists 9/9/9 then we can only go down that low. As for SBN, the 10-9 chart is very basic. There is only one RVR report and the only takeoff mins are published under adequate visual reference,
1600 RVR or 1/4 sm.

Yeah, what he said ^

Our ops specs allow us to go to 5/5/5, but ONLY if the airport also states 5/5/5. If the airport has higher mins then we need to use to more restrictive of the two. Some airports such as IPT, Williamsport PA, even have a ceiling requirement. This is because IPT requires a turn prior to 400 AGL in the obstacle departure procedure.

I don't have an approach plate for SBN, but if it says you need 1600RVR, then thats what you need. Unless you are part 91 or course.

 

[propsarebest]

Jepps are NOT controlling, if you have C056 AND C078, and the airfield is so equipped...

 

[DoinTime]

Actually the Jepps are controling. We are authorized at 6/6/6 as long is approved for that airport. If an airport lists 9/9/9 then we can only go down that low. As for SBN, the 10-9 chart is very basic. There is only one RVR report and the only takeoff mins are published under adequate visual reference,
1600 RVR or 1/4 sm.

As stated earlier. PCL does not use Jepps. I'm not claiming to know what the LIDO charts say about SBN but they are often different than Jepp.

 

[propsarebest]

As stated earlier. PCL does not use Jepps. I'm not claiming to know what the LIDO charts say about SBN but they are often different than Jepp.

I feel your pain too.. We use LIDO also- Mistakes are very common, ya know, little stuff, like fixes being left off the enroute charts...

 

[SSDD]

As has been stated before Ops Specs are controlling, and without HIRL, or CL, it doesn't seem like 27L qualifies for 1000 RVR takeoffs.

My experience with LIDO is limited, but from what I've seen, I can't understand why the FAA would allow any airline to use them.

 

[jetracer5]

Quick question...

In KSBN this morning. Tower calling 1000RVR on runway 27L. Look at the back of our Jepp 10-9 page to find airport takeoff mins. Runway 27L has no HIRL or CL so the chart lists the minimum visibility for takeoff is 1600 RVR per adaquate visual reference. So we hold our taxi out. Meanwhile two Pinnacle CRJ 200's taxi our and state that they only need 1000 RVR for takeoff, they both depart.


Does Pinnacle have different charts than I do? Is there any way that Pinnacle's ops specs are allowing them to go below the chart's published takeoff mins?

Thanks, it was bugging us all morning.

This is one of the reasons why i refuse to ride on PNCL. What were they thinking???

 

[Ratherbsurfing]

Jepps are NOT controlling, if you have C056 AND C078, and the airfield is so equipped...

Jepps are definitely not controlling. If you carefully read c078, you should find a statement allowing you to reduce to lower visibility requirements
provided that various lighting and marking configurations exist and the published airport takeoff minimums are standard or lower. Pinnacle was doing what they were allowed to and supposed to, moving meat from point a to b.

 

[gunfyter]

I have never seen Jepps mins that were out of line with C078.

 

[shelton]

Here is what I think...

The Jepps are correct, at least the majority of the time. For 1000 RVR we need:

Operative Runway CL, or
HIRL and RCLM, and
TDZ, MID(if installed) and Rollout RVRs normally required and control. One may be inop, in which case the other two control.

KSBN meets the HIRL and RCLM, but as far as I can tell it only has TDZ RVR. This is why the Jepps do not list it as an option--it's not.

The TDZ RVR info comes from airnav.com for 27L. I suppose that could be wrong.

Anyway, as I said, that is what I think. I will always go by the Jepps.

 

[titans10]

better think again

Jepps are definitely not controlling. If you carefully read c078, you should find a statement allowing you to reduce to lower visibility requirements
provided that various lighting and marking configurations exist and the published airport takeoff minimums are standard or lower. Pinnacle was doing what they were allowed to and supposed to, moving meat from point a to b.

 

[DoinTime]

Anyway, as I said, that is what I think. I will always go by the Jepps.

What would you do if your company used LIDOs instead of Jepps?

I've got the LIDO AOI page 1-20 for SBN in front of me now and the only visibility restriction for rwy 27 and 18/36 is 1/4 mile tower visibility. There is no use of RVR data for this runway. The original post does not indicate what reported tower vis was but if they were reporting 1/4 mile it was a legal takeoff.

I'm not saying LIDO is right but thats what we have available to us and thats what we use. Assuming the tower visibility was there these PCL crews did exactly what they were trained and expected to do.

 

[SSDD]

I don't have an SBN chart with me right now, bu tif the tower reported the 27L rvr as 1000' as the original post said, then it is controlling. Regardless of what LIDO says.

 

[DoinTime]

I don't have an SBN chart with me right now, but if the tower reported the 27L rvr as 1000' as the original post said, then it is controlling. Regardless of what LIDO says.

It is not controlling if your charts do not have a reference to RVR. Tower visibility then becomes controlling.

 

[SSDD]

If its installed at the runway, and it is operational, then it is controlling. You can't ignore it just because you have substandard charts with incomplete information. If the tower gives you an RVR, then it is controlling for that runway.

 

[veneratio]

I don't know about Pinnacle, but I know at some other regionals you can reduce according to what the -9 states. For example: The standard takeoff minimums are 1SM (5000 RVR). If, on the back of the -9, standard (or lower) mins are depicted, you can reduce to either 1/4 mile (1600 RVR), 1000/1000 RVR (TDZ and RO), or 600/600/600 RVR (one RVR may be inoperative). This all depends on the type of lights that particular runway has. It all depends on your OPS SPECS.

 

[DoinTime]

You can't ignore it just because you have substandard charts with incomplete information.

Yes we can. As long as our charts are approved by the FAA we can use them for everything contained therein legally. That is FACT.

Are you suggesting that we are bound by information contained in charts that we are not approved to use? Surely, you must be smarter than that. We use the charts we are provided and we have no way of knowing what everyone else's charts say. If you want to point a finger at someone for the charts we use point it at the company or the FAA for approving them. The crew is not to blame.

 

[SSDD]

That's pretty scary. To ignore information that is readily available. I'll say it again, if the tower issued an RVR report for that runway, then you can't ignore it.

BTW, what do you Ops Specs say about taking off when the reported RVR is 1000 ft?

 

[RJLoser]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --

(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.

Jepps and LIDOs are not controlling

 

[SSDD]

Or another way, what do your Ops Specs say about the relevance of RVR reports when conducting lower than standard takeoffs?

 

[RJLoser]

........

 

[jehtplane]

Jepps are NOT controlling, if you have C056 AND C078, and the airfield is so equipped...

Jepps are controlling. Your op specs give you authorization to use lower than standard takeoff minimums, but you still CANNOT go lower than published. Kinda scary that some of you guys think you can....

 

[jetracer5]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --

(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.

Jepps and LIDOs are not controlling

Yea if i was FLYING A CESSNA! We dont operate Part 91 but aparently PNCL does

 

[RJLoser]

Yea if i was FLYING A CESSNA! We dont operate Part 91 but aparently PNCL does

That is a 121 reg. Look a little closer.

 

[Crizz]

You suppose they had a takeoff alternate?

 

[propsarebest]

umm, no they are not...
your ops specs are, weather they say you use published takeoff mins or you can use less than standard takeoff mins...


See C056.

Jepps are controlling. Your op specs give you authorization to use lower than standard takeoff minimums, but you still CANNOT go lower than published. Kinda scary that some of you guys think you can....