Tail draggin' ain't easy!

[mcjohn]

I flew a C-170 today working on my tailwheel endorsement. I knew they were touchy but I had no idea it would be so freakin' squirrly! I flew for 3.5 hours and just started getting the hang of x-wind (real x wind today) wheel landings on a 40' wide strip. That stuffs dangerous!!! It's the 1st time I've sat in the left seat in almost a year and really the first flying I've done in months (other than sitting in the right seat with folded arms CFIing) The instructor said I did well and that I may be able to get signed off tommorow.
GO ME!!
If any of you folks have the opportunity to try tail wheel flying - Take it. I'd say it was the most humbleing experience I've had so far in aviation. I can't believe it was so common back in the old days.
I'm going to bed early tonight. I flew for 3.5 hours in that mess on 4 hours of sleep!

 

[MauleSkinner]

I can't believe it was so common back in the old days.

Well, it's a lot easier if you don't know any better

Fly safe!

David

 

[Lead Sled]

I flew a C-170 today working on my tailwheel endorsement. I knew they were touchy but I had no idea it would be so freakin' squirrly! I flew for 3.5 hours and just started getting the hang of x-wind (real x wind today) wheel landings on a 40' wide strip. That stuffs dangerous!!! It's the 1st time I've sat in the left seat in almost a year and really the first flying I've done in months (other than sitting in the right seat with folded arms CFIing) The instructor said I did well and that I may be able to get signed off tommorow.
GO ME!!
If any of you folks have the opportunity to try tail wheel flying - Take it. I'd say it was the most humbleing experience I've had so far in aviation. I can't believe it was so common back in the old days.
I'm going to bed early tonight. I flew for 3.5 hours in that mess on 4 hours of sleep!

Congratulations keep it up. At some point you ought to consider gettig some time in gliders and doing some aerobatic training. It will all go a long way towards rounding you out as a pilot.

'Sled

 

[414Flyer]

Tail wheels arent easy either

Have not finished my endorsement, but have some experience in a Thorp T-18, Luscombe and Decathlon.

 

[avbug]

I knew they were touchy but I had no idea it would be so freakin' squirrly! That stuffs dangerous!!!

If you approach it with marginal piloting skills, yes. Otherwise, no. If you land the airplane straight, it works the same regardless of w(h)eather you have a nosewheel or tailwheel.

There's a reason it's called "conventional" gear.

Don't get caught up in all the hoopla. Landing a conventional gear airplane is a basic skill, not an advanced one.

 

[mcjohn]

Maybe it was the environment but it seemed DANGEROUS and was also very therapeutic. I needed to 'really' fly again. I didn't have much problem taxiing and taking off or touching down. But rolling out and trying to dance around on those pedals?! I think I'm going to have nightmares about ground loops tonight.

 

[mcjohn]

If you land the airplane straight, it works the same regardless of w(h)eather you have a nosewheel or tailwheel.

There's a reason it's called "conventional" gear.

That's B.S. It doesn't work the same. Every tiny motion has to be anticipated and quickly corrected on roll out especially on a X wind wheel landing. I was told it takes some time to develop this skill and then it will become easy, but how can you say it's the same?

 

[avbug]

I was told it takes some time to develop this skill and then it will become easy, but how can you say it's the same?

Because it is the same. What is revealed is poor piloting technique and bad habits. The skill it takes time to develop isn't magical tailwheel technique, but merely proper piloting technique. You just got away with it before. Now you know.

But rolling out and trying to dance around on those pedals?!

There's part of your problem. You shouldn't need to be doing that...land it straight, put in your correction. The rudder has always been there...you just haven't had to think about it before. Like a muscle you haven't used, it hurts for a little while, but soon you won't notice the difference.

 

[170B]

It's easy if you know how

I'm teaching my 15 year old to fly in a 170. He will solo in about 6 weeks (16th birthday). I learned in a J-3. Not harder, just different. Flyin' is flyin'. You just can't stop flyin' and start drivin' once the wheels are on the ground. It is a lot easier to teach someone from the start than to convert to a tail wheel.

 

[mcjohn]

How about on take off. Dancing on the pedals is a little exagerated but there was definitely needed rudder action. In perfect conditions with steady wind I could see that being much easier to land and not need much rudder action as long as your straight. How can you say that in swirling winds while landing on a runway where you have to practically dodge tree limbs coming over the fence should not need much rudder. If the x winds are intermittent and your having a lot of shear like we do with all our overgrown trees around the runway you have to flutter the rudder a good bit and it's hard. There seems to be huge latency in the response. Say a sudden cross wind gust hits right after touchdown. If it swings that tail out your done unless you can anticipate the slightest beginning motion and act quickly with the right amount of rudder which is extremely sluggish on roll out.
The instructor said that if I could learn to fly his 170 then I'd be able to fly any. I take that with a grain of salt but possibly there could be something pretty inconsistant with different tailwheel planes.

 

[Tailwheelman]

congrats Mcjohn! Keep after it and you'll have it licked in no time. It ain't hard just a lil' different than what you were used to.

 

[falcon20driver]

Square it up before you touchdown and there won't be any dancing on the pedals. Like everyone else has said, if you're dancing than you never learned to land correctly in the first place, once you learn to land right you'll won't have a problem, just get it squared up and land strait and she will roll out strait, if there's a xwind than you'll simply need to smoothly increase the rudder pressure as you slow down.

 

[RightPedal]

Once you start flying TW airplanes you'll never be the same. The cub and a C-170 will bring about changes in your pilot skills for sure. The 170 is heavy, long, and under powered. It's a good teacher. A cub on the other hand is like the best woman, best steak, best whiskey, best sense of well being a pilot can experence, at least to me anyway. Now go find yourself a super cub or a maule and you'll be ruin't.

 

[av8rbama]

I got mine about a year ago in a super cub. Nice to climb out at 1300 fpm on a hot day near gross. A very humbling experience, but most of it came pretty easily due to my experience in gliders. Gotta get a couple more hours so I can tow gliders in a pawnee, i'm looking forward to that.

 

[8inMan]

MCJOHN, You mentioned in your last post about anticipating the slightest beginning motion. That's exactly what you have to do when taking off or landing a tailwheel. That may have seemed extremely difficult to do on your first tailwheel flight, but like everyone else has said, it will become easier for you with practice. Once you really get the hang of it, you'll look back at this thread and say "They were right". When you hop back in your trike, you might realize how sloppy you used to be and how much more on top of things you are now.

 

[agpilot77]

You just can't stop flyin' and start drivin' once the wheels are on the ground.

Well said, like my Dad told me, "you got to fly it till it stops". And just when you get a little complacent, it will take off towards the ditch (ahh, the good ol spring steel gear)

 

[MauleSkinner]

How about on take off. Dancing on the pedals is a little exagerated but there was definitely needed rudder action. In perfect conditions with steady wind I could see that being much easier to land and not need much rudder action as long as your straight. How can you say that in swirling winds while landing on a runway where you have to practically dodge tree limbs coming over the fence should not need much rudder. If the x winds are intermittent and your having a lot of shear like we do with all our overgrown trees around the runway you have to flutter the rudder a good bit and it's hard. There seems to be huge latency in the response. Say a sudden cross wind gust hits right after touchdown. If it swings that tail out your done unless you can anticipate the slightest beginning motion and act quickly with the right amount of rudder which is extremely sluggish on roll out.

You just about hit the nail on the head with this...what you're largely training yourself to do is see smaller deviations from your desired path. The smaller the yaw angle you can distinguish, the smaller the correction needs to be.

If you don't recognize it until the airplane has turned 3 or 4 degrees, the airplane has already started to build some momentum towards a ground loop. The correction required is going to be larger, and the delay in response is going to be longer.

The same thing goes when the airplane is corrected back to its straight path. If you're correcting back from a 3 or 4 degree swing, you're building momentum, and the airplane is going to want to keep going through center to the other side. THIS is where the need comes in to "anticipate".

If you can observe and make correction for a 1-degree deviation, the required response is very small, the delay is negligible, and the need to anticipate "countering the counter" doesn't really exist. You just return the rudder to the point where you should have stable rollout.

Have fun!

David

 

[Lead Sled]

Back in a previous life, in another galaxy far far away, I flew for one of the majors. The chief pilot told me that he could always tell guys with taildragger experience by the way they flew the 727 - they knew what their feet were for.

'Sled

 

[aucfi]

I gave my friend his tailwheel endorsement while he was training for his CFI. He and his instructor said after having the TW training and experience he flew much better than he had ever before.

That being said, I got my license in a 172, but learned how to land properly in a Cub.

Have fun with it & keep dragging that tail.

 

[Cat Driver]

Quote:

" Well, it's a lot easier if you don't know any better "

When I learned to fly the only training airplanes we had to learn on were tail wheel airplanes.

I remember seeing the first nose wheel trainer a Piper Tri Pacer and we just couldn't figure out why anyone would do that to an airplane.

Now over fifty years later I understand why, it was to make it so easy to control during take off and landing that there was nothing really to learn, just jump in the thing and drive it.

I will grant that some tail wheel airplanes do require a lot of attention as to how you handle them such as a Pitts Special or a Grumman Turbo Goose, however even these airplanes only require some training on type.

So the bottom line is all pilots should get some tail wheel time if for no other reason than to learn to fly a conventional airplane.

Cat Driver