Tab Express (Deland, FL) Shuts Down!

[RSixer]

There was a thread just a few months ago about Tab, from those inquiring if it was a good place to go. Of course it turned into a heated debate about PFT, for those who endorsed it I hate to say I told you so, but, I told you so.

 

[Yellow Snow]

There have been numerous threads about TAB in the last few weeks. In all of them people have basically said STAY AWAY. When a person wants to be an "airline pilot" and they have a lot of pappy's money to spend they just will not take advice.

 

[BrianNC]

Here is an article from the student's viewpoint.


http://www.wesh.com/news/4618631/detail.html

 

[Bryan D]

just like all ATP back in the day

was that the name i cant remember??

It was Airline Training Academy based at Orlando Executive airport. The school was owned and operated by a retired Delta captain James "Jim" Williams and family. If anybody knows the whereabouts of this family I would appreciate it if you forward the information to me. Apparently theft at this level is a white collar crime. The Williams family made of with $16m and as far as I know they never served a day in jail and they kept all of their assests.

 

[fliynhi]

It's unfortunate that we're not all perfect investors like pi$$stream 200 and tdturdo. Yes I went to Tab. No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up. I agree that the three headed monster of mitch, bob and tony deserve to go to jail for everyone they stuck it too, but the students were just looking for the fastest way into the industry. You can pi$$ and moan all you want about pft and all of that bs, but the truth is if the majority of us had the financial ability, we would've done the same thing. The regionals may not pay much, but it sure as hell beats $8/hour flying in the traffic pattern and doing stalls and steep turns. Like I said if you want to go after the mgmt at Tab go for it, I'm right there with you; but cut the students a break. They still owe 100k with nothing to show for it. I think thats enough of a beating for one lifetime.

 

[Ralgha]

It's unfortunate that we're not all perfect investors like pi$$stream 200 and tdturdo. Yes I went to Tab. No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up. I agree that the three headed monster of mitch, bob and tony deserve to go to jail for everyone they stuck it too, but the students were just looking for the fastest way into the industry. You can pi$$ and moan all you want about pft and all of that bs, but the truth is if the majority of us had the financial ability, we would've done the same thing.

Nope, can't say that I would have.

The regionals may not pay much, but it sure as hell beats $8/hour flying in the traffic pattern and doing stalls and steep turns.

If you're only making $8/hr, then your either a really bad instructor, or you're working for the wrong guy. If you want to make more than that, you can. Just takes effort, but we can't put any effort into it can we?

 

[fliynhi]

I think I'll do something thats rarely seen on this message board and appologize to gulfstream and tdturbo for the name calling. We're all professionals here and deserve to be treated as such. I just feel that the aggression and anger should be pointed to the ones that deserve it; Mitch Mitchelson, Bob Adamo and Tony Ptach. I really hope the Florida and/or US Attorney General get involved this time and put an end to these money scamming a$$holes! If you truly feel that the students got what they deserved, thats you opinion. Try looking at it from their point of view though.

 

[JD2003]

This is white collar crime, without a doubt. I know allot of the students who were there and allot of the fraud that was involved. These people (including the lender) committed bank fraud, deceptive advertisement, and fraud in the inducement.

I wouldn't call it entreprenuereal spirit, Bank Fraud is a serious crime and needs to be dealt with accordingly by our public officials.

If I were those students I will steel those AB90s and B1900s and sell them in Mexico.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It's unfortunate that we're not all perfect investors like pi$$stream 200 and tdturdo. Yes I went to Tab. No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up. I agree that the three headed monster of mitch, bob and tony deserve to go to jail for everyone they stuck it too, but the students were just looking for the fastest way into the industry. You can pi$$ and moan all you want about pft and all of that bs, but the truth is if the majority of us had the financial ability, we would've done the same thing. The regionals may not pay much, but it sure as hell beats $8/hour flying in the traffic pattern and doing stalls and steep turns. Like I said if you want to go after the mgmt at Tab go for it, I'm right there with you; but cut the students a break. They still owe 100k with nothing to show for it. I think thats enough of a beating for one lifetime.[/QUOTE



no need to apologize to me, you got all you deserve!

"Investor"...hardly....try "industry scumbag"

you see, the point is to get paid for flying passengers, not pay to fly passengers.

AVIATION 101 we call it.

And you failed.

Bet that 8$/hr sounds good now huh? By the way, its easy to make 15-25/hr as a CFI....but maybe thats not what the shiny brochures at TAB said...

hey did you at least get to keep your King Air uniform?

.

 

[TonyC]

Here is an article from the student's viewpoint.


http://www.wesh.com/news/4618631/detail.html

From that article: "For now, students have no use for uniforms, flight books, and laptops, with no classes to attend."


As if they had a use for the uniform previously?!?!?



Also, :"TAB Express owner Robert Adamo said the airline closed because it's suing a bank that is no longer issuing loans for flight school students."

I'll have to remember that tactic. If I can't get a loan from a bank, I'll just sue the bank.


I gotta go now - - I'm going to get all my neighbors together for a joint venture. They're gonna take out $2 million loans, give the money to me, and I'm going to paint flourescent street numbers on the curbs. I need to hire a consultant to design a neighborhood uniform - - I'm thinking khaki shorts and maroon polos... any ideas on footwear?









.

 

[fliynhi]

If you read what I wrote, I said "No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up." I have a question for some of you, is it really pft if you get paid $25/hour as a f/o and $35/hour as a captain. If the airline ever got off the ground, that is what they were to be paid. I saw it in writing on the contracts that a few of my friends signed. I didn't think it was a good idea to borrow money to make an investment, but they thought otherwise and learned the hard way. The 100k was supposed to pay for the training and 1900 type. Yes it was an expensive school, but how else do you get actual airline pilots (furloughed, retired and a few active) come and teach unless you pay them well? I do agree that the uniforms were pretty ridiculous though.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

8 an hour to cfi? is that for multi too?

 

[say again]

You can pi$$ and moan all you want about pft and all of that bs, but the truth is if the majority of us had the financial ability, we would've done the same thing .

I had the financial ability to afford this crap, but chose not to. I paid $20000 for all my ratings, except the ATP, and I made it just fine to the airlines.

 

[polysciguy9]

The way many of you guys make it sound, you'd think most of Tab's students were active participants on this message board. Maybe a lot of folks simply saw the ads in flight magazines and had faith enough in people to think they wouldn't screw them over - that maybe they lived in a country where if someone promises a product for a given price, then they deliver it to the best of their ability, and if not, the law would protect them. If Tab's execs did break the law, why are so many of you so hateful to Tab's victims? Geez, I'd hate to see what you'd say to a rape victim.

Yes, they all should have come on flightinfo.com before signing up. But I'm sure for many people, this has ruined their lives. Geez, have a little compassion for Christ's sake - and a little professionalism. It's fair to say that these guys screwed up, but it's easy to see that many of you were hoping for this outcome. Makes you proud to be an American doesn't it? Sure glad it's not my a-- overseas dying to protect you people.

 

[Yellow Snow]

research

The way many of you guys make it sound, you'd think most of Tab's students were active participants on this message board. Maybe a lot of folks simply saw the ads in flight magazines and had faith enough in people to think they wouldn't screw them over - that maybe they lived in a country where if someone promises a product for a given price, then they deliver it to the best of their ability, and if not, the law would protect them. If Tab's execs did break the law, why are so many of you so hateful to Tab's victims? Geez, I'd hate to see what you'd say to a rape victim.

Yes, they all should have come on flightinfo.com before signing up. But I'm sure for many people, this has ruined their lives. Geez, have a little compassion for Christ's sake - and a little professionalism. It's fair to say that these guys screwed up, but it's easy to see that many of you were hoping for this outcome. Makes you proud to be an American doesn't it? Sure glad it's not my a-- overseas dying to protect you people.

I didn't use this board to find out that the Williams family had bankrupted Airline Aviation Academy and sold it days before it was to be foreclosed. Later became Comair. Then opened ATA and were draining it of all the cash and preparing to walk away with the students money. Nor did I need this board to find out Mitch M had left ATA and gone to TAB without missing a beat in his sales pitch to unsuspecting students.

You have to do research before spending that kind of money. If someone is offering a service but will not let you pay for services as they are provided but insist that you pay in full up front, bells, horns, sirens, and alerts should be ringing in your ears. This isn't a couple of grand for a couch or some carpet, this is real money. If these people signed a contract for that kind of money without a lawyer they deserve to be ashamed. I feel bad for them so do many of the people posting here but come on its 2005 You can get information.

I think a lot of the venom you are seeing here is pointed at the decisions these people were making and what implications the decisions have on the industry. Most of the pilots that are senior at airlines got there one of two ways. One group are the military. I think no-one would question the fact that they paid their dues. The other group are the guys and gals who went to the local FBO and over a long period of time got their ratings, built experience, instructed, and maybe had a succession of sucky jobs before they got their break. These people worked hard paid their dues and really earned their positions.

Now within the last few years we have seen the proliferation of the "academy". Most of the students in these places just seem to be trying to shortcut the system. They are willing to pay through the nose for training because it gets them the interview. These students seem willing to sell their souls to cut out the dues paying part of the job progression that so many of us have had to endure. I for one am flying traffic because I couldn't afford to take on the debt to get the super duper ERAU, ATA, Pan Am, or Flight Safety nod to get an interview at a regional. I had to (UGH) go to a local FBO to get my ratings. But wait, I found an instructor there who wasn't using me to get hours to go to the newest super regional. He actually loved teaching and tried his best to pass some of his twenty plus thousand hours of experience through my exceedingly thick skull. I am now debt free flying 70 to 120 hrs a month for money and may actually know a little about flying and decision making due to having such an experienced instructor. I am fairly certain that after reaching the proper number of hours I too will get the coveted interview and I won't have to pay over half my salary each month in student loans.

I really think the venom is pointed at these kids trying to work around the system as it has existed for many years and use what many would view as a shortcut. Many of the older heads I talk to honestly believe (probably correctly) that pilots who have only flown for nine or ten months and maybe 350-400 hours just have no business flying your or my family around the country at 450 knots. The idea is that a pilot should really have to get in the trenches and fly a lot before they are making decisions that affect 50 to 90 passengers.

Sorry for the long rant. Just trying to explain.

 

[JetBlast2000]

The 100k was supposed to pay for the training and 1900 type. Yes it was an expensive school, but how else do you get actual airline pilots (furloughed, retired and a few active) come and teach unless you pay them well?

You did buy the sales pitch...

You get people to work for you when you sell a good product. Pax come and buy the product thus paying for the airline...

 

[pullmyfinger]

Amen..

 

[Yellow Snow]

Oh, by the way, if it is proven that T and B were using student training money to finance the acft for the airline they should rot in jail. That is fraud plain and simple. If they sold training and spent the money on 1900's instead of training they're the scum of the earth. I can't possibly understand how Key not loaning to new students could have a bearing on whether the training is completed for the students who have already paid their money unless this was the case.

 

[BrianNC]

I really think the venom is pointed at these kids trying to work around the system as it has existed for many years and use what many would view as a shortcut.

In searching for places to train, I read about TAB Express and Gulfstream Academy. I thought they sounded pretty cool and had no conception of it being an attempt at a workaround and a shorcut. Until I posted a question about them over at the JC forum, I had no idea of the animosity that existed toward these two programs and PFT in general. As a matter of fact I didn't even know it was PFT or even what PFT was, or that there was anything wrong with it (at least as far as some pilots were concerned). And that something is wrong with it is still a subjective opinion. If I had never found these forums by accident I would have gone and never thought twice about it.

All I saw was an opportunity to get to the right seat and build time without instructing, which I personally did not think I would be good at. No more, no less.

So to say that they are all trying to work around the system or trying to shortcut the system is not necessarily true. If they were like me they didn't know what they didn't know.

 

[polysciguy9]

From my academic perspective, a lot of the animosity seems to be directed at market level forces that can't be stopped. Obviously aviation was a more lucrative career when pilot selection criteria were stricter. Fortunately, civilians began earning the opportunity to fly commercially, but this caused the problem of increasing the number of eligible pilots to fill airline spots. The number of airline hopefulls is far greater than the need - thus one would expect pilot pay to decrease - perhaps past "0" and to a negative level where pilots are paying to fly (atleast for awhile).

One person in an earlier post mentioned the TAB guys losing their money as being an "entrepreneurial" experience. Actually, airlines charging for F/O time seems more entrepreneurial to me. It sounds to me like the anti-PTF people are upset that the market is moving towards this - and rightfully so - it's hurting their ability to make money. And for that, I offer you my sympathy. The same sympathy many of you are denying the TAB students. I understand the anti-PTF sentiments, but it's the same as a labor union trying to maintain high levels of compensation in a market where companies can look elsewhere for equally qualified employees at a lower price. Unless something changes, this seems to be the way the market is moving. I'd be interested in others' perspectives on this.