Tab Express (Deland, FL) Shuts Down!

[fliynhi]

If you read what I wrote, I said "No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up." I have a question for some of you, is it really pft if you get paid $25/hour as a f/o and $35/hour as a captain. If the airline ever got off the ground, that is what they were to be paid. I saw it in writing on the contracts that a few of my friends signed. I didn't think it was a good idea to borrow money to make an investment, but they thought otherwise and learned the hard way. The 100k was supposed to pay for the training and 1900 type. Yes it was an expensive school, but how else do you get actual airline pilots (furloughed, retired and a few active) come and teach unless you pay them well? I do agree that the uniforms were pretty ridiculous though.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

8 an hour to cfi? is that for multi too?

 

[say again]

You can pi$$ and moan all you want about pft and all of that bs, but the truth is if the majority of us had the financial ability, we would've done the same thing .

I had the financial ability to afford this crap, but chose not to. I paid $20000 for all my ratings, except the ATP, and I made it just fine to the airlines.

 

[polysciguy9]

The way many of you guys make it sound, you'd think most of Tab's students were active participants on this message board. Maybe a lot of folks simply saw the ads in flight magazines and had faith enough in people to think they wouldn't screw them over - that maybe they lived in a country where if someone promises a product for a given price, then they deliver it to the best of their ability, and if not, the law would protect them. If Tab's execs did break the law, why are so many of you so hateful to Tab's victims? Geez, I'd hate to see what you'd say to a rape victim.

Yes, they all should have come on flightinfo.com before signing up. But I'm sure for many people, this has ruined their lives. Geez, have a little compassion for Christ's sake - and a little professionalism. It's fair to say that these guys screwed up, but it's easy to see that many of you were hoping for this outcome. Makes you proud to be an American doesn't it? Sure glad it's not my a-- overseas dying to protect you people.

 

[Yellow Snow]

research

The way many of you guys make it sound, you'd think most of Tab's students were active participants on this message board. Maybe a lot of folks simply saw the ads in flight magazines and had faith enough in people to think they wouldn't screw them over - that maybe they lived in a country where if someone promises a product for a given price, then they deliver it to the best of their ability, and if not, the law would protect them. If Tab's execs did break the law, why are so many of you so hateful to Tab's victims? Geez, I'd hate to see what you'd say to a rape victim.

Yes, they all should have come on flightinfo.com before signing up. But I'm sure for many people, this has ruined their lives. Geez, have a little compassion for Christ's sake - and a little professionalism. It's fair to say that these guys screwed up, but it's easy to see that many of you were hoping for this outcome. Makes you proud to be an American doesn't it? Sure glad it's not my a-- overseas dying to protect you people.

I didn't use this board to find out that the Williams family had bankrupted Airline Aviation Academy and sold it days before it was to be foreclosed. Later became Comair. Then opened ATA and were draining it of all the cash and preparing to walk away with the students money. Nor did I need this board to find out Mitch M had left ATA and gone to TAB without missing a beat in his sales pitch to unsuspecting students.

You have to do research before spending that kind of money. If someone is offering a service but will not let you pay for services as they are provided but insist that you pay in full up front, bells, horns, sirens, and alerts should be ringing in your ears. This isn't a couple of grand for a couch or some carpet, this is real money. If these people signed a contract for that kind of money without a lawyer they deserve to be ashamed. I feel bad for them so do many of the people posting here but come on its 2005 You can get information.

I think a lot of the venom you are seeing here is pointed at the decisions these people were making and what implications the decisions have on the industry. Most of the pilots that are senior at airlines got there one of two ways. One group are the military. I think no-one would question the fact that they paid their dues. The other group are the guys and gals who went to the local FBO and over a long period of time got their ratings, built experience, instructed, and maybe had a succession of sucky jobs before they got their break. These people worked hard paid their dues and really earned their positions.

Now within the last few years we have seen the proliferation of the "academy". Most of the students in these places just seem to be trying to shortcut the system. They are willing to pay through the nose for training because it gets them the interview. These students seem willing to sell their souls to cut out the dues paying part of the job progression that so many of us have had to endure. I for one am flying traffic because I couldn't afford to take on the debt to get the super duper ERAU, ATA, Pan Am, or Flight Safety nod to get an interview at a regional. I had to (UGH) go to a local FBO to get my ratings. But wait, I found an instructor there who wasn't using me to get hours to go to the newest super regional. He actually loved teaching and tried his best to pass some of his twenty plus thousand hours of experience through my exceedingly thick skull. I am now debt free flying 70 to 120 hrs a month for money and may actually know a little about flying and decision making due to having such an experienced instructor. I am fairly certain that after reaching the proper number of hours I too will get the coveted interview and I won't have to pay over half my salary each month in student loans.

I really think the venom is pointed at these kids trying to work around the system as it has existed for many years and use what many would view as a shortcut. Many of the older heads I talk to honestly believe (probably correctly) that pilots who have only flown for nine or ten months and maybe 350-400 hours just have no business flying your or my family around the country at 450 knots. The idea is that a pilot should really have to get in the trenches and fly a lot before they are making decisions that affect 50 to 90 passengers.

Sorry for the long rant. Just trying to explain.

 

[JetBlast2000]

The 100k was supposed to pay for the training and 1900 type. Yes it was an expensive school, but how else do you get actual airline pilots (furloughed, retired and a few active) come and teach unless you pay them well?

You did buy the sales pitch...

You get people to work for you when you sell a good product. Pax come and buy the product thus paying for the airline...

 

[pullmyfinger]

Amen..

 

[Yellow Snow]

Oh, by the way, if it is proven that T and B were using student training money to finance the acft for the airline they should rot in jail. That is fraud plain and simple. If they sold training and spent the money on 1900's instead of training they're the scum of the earth. I can't possibly understand how Key not loaning to new students could have a bearing on whether the training is completed for the students who have already paid their money unless this was the case.

 

[BrianNC]

I really think the venom is pointed at these kids trying to work around the system as it has existed for many years and use what many would view as a shortcut.

In searching for places to train, I read about TAB Express and Gulfstream Academy. I thought they sounded pretty cool and had no conception of it being an attempt at a workaround and a shorcut. Until I posted a question about them over at the JC forum, I had no idea of the animosity that existed toward these two programs and PFT in general. As a matter of fact I didn't even know it was PFT or even what PFT was, or that there was anything wrong with it (at least as far as some pilots were concerned). And that something is wrong with it is still a subjective opinion. If I had never found these forums by accident I would have gone and never thought twice about it.

All I saw was an opportunity to get to the right seat and build time without instructing, which I personally did not think I would be good at. No more, no less.

So to say that they are all trying to work around the system or trying to shortcut the system is not necessarily true. If they were like me they didn't know what they didn't know.

 

[polysciguy9]

From my academic perspective, a lot of the animosity seems to be directed at market level forces that can't be stopped. Obviously aviation was a more lucrative career when pilot selection criteria were stricter. Fortunately, civilians began earning the opportunity to fly commercially, but this caused the problem of increasing the number of eligible pilots to fill airline spots. The number of airline hopefulls is far greater than the need - thus one would expect pilot pay to decrease - perhaps past "0" and to a negative level where pilots are paying to fly (atleast for awhile).

One person in an earlier post mentioned the TAB guys losing their money as being an "entrepreneurial" experience. Actually, airlines charging for F/O time seems more entrepreneurial to me. It sounds to me like the anti-PTF people are upset that the market is moving towards this - and rightfully so - it's hurting their ability to make money. And for that, I offer you my sympathy. The same sympathy many of you are denying the TAB students. I understand the anti-PTF sentiments, but it's the same as a labor union trying to maintain high levels of compensation in a market where companies can look elsewhere for equally qualified employees at a lower price. Unless something changes, this seems to be the way the market is moving. I'd be interested in others' perspectives on this.

 

[Denizen]

Key Bank

Interesting aside about Key bank,


A few months ago, I was trapped in SLC unable to ski. So I read the free USA Today and the local fish wrapper.

Seems like Key Bank was involved with a nursing school in the SLC area that did the same thing.

The school offered a nursing degree in a shorter than standard time and a job at the end.... IIRC the price was higher than other nursing schools, but they offered a "fast track" to a "good" nursing job.

After enrolling enough students, taking their money up front, the school closed its doors citing some sort of financial difficulty.


Odd that this same bank is involved in many scams such as these. Again, fuzzy memory, but the bank seemed to be involved with many trade schools.

Someone got rich, the students got the massive note and nothing in return.

Buyer Beware, if it seems too good to be true...

 

[fliynhi]

Hey Jetblast2000, do you work for the media? I thought they were the only guys who could take one little snippet of a qoute and turn it around to sound like something completely different. If you read my entire post I said, "No I didn't drop 100k. I made it through just as the "airline" scam was being dreamed up." I also said, "I didn't think it was a good idea to borrow money to make an investment, but they thought otherwise and learned the hard way." They as in the students who took out additional loans to invest in the airline. Did I spend alot of money on my ratings at Tab? Yes. $100,000? No. Did I buy my job? No. Should I have saved some money and gone somewhere else? Probably. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's real easy to sit back and judge someone else's decisions. My whole reason posting on here is not to defend pft, but rather defend people with little or no experience who got took by a criminal organization. Those students got screwed bad enough, they don't need people they were hoping to work with rubbing their nose in it. They made a BIG mistake and will be paying for it for the next 20+ years. Just cut'em a break and go after the TAB mgmt. They are the ones who deserve to get screwed.

 

[RSixer]

, but rather defend people with little or no experience who got took by a criminal organization. Those students got screwed bad enough, they don't need people they were hoping to work with rubbing their nose in it.

That's exactly the piont, these crooks who take advantage of people who don't really know anything about aviation yet, all they know is thier dream of wanting a flying job, hell years ago when I just got started if someone told me they could get me on with a airline in record fast time, I to would of at least seriously considered it.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Hey Jetblast2000, do you work for the media? I thought they were the only guys who could take one little snippet of a qoute and turn it around to sound like something completely different. If you read my entire post I said, "No I didn't drop 100k.

My post was not implying that YOU paid the cash. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your logic. At one point early in my career I considered the Am-flight right seat program. But after talking with those pilots who were flying for Am-flight I realized that there are no short cuts. And for me, the CFI path would be more productive.

[font=&quot]The goal is PIC time. Weather its single or multi. I’d rather have 1000 PIC single than 500 sic(or pic) multi turbine and be out 25K… PIC is KING![/font]

 

[Flyguy6]

I have a question about PFT. I notice a lot of people get ill when you mention PFT. I really dont kow much about it so I dont have an opinion. But I would like to ask this. I am 37 years old and I want to be an airline pilot. If I wait to get the CFI job and bukid hours for 2 years just to get a charter job flying Barons for anotyher two years and then get to an airline.Iwil be too old to have a career. So whats wrong with an older person that wants to be a profesional pilot to do PFT? Its gets you to your goal before you get too old Everyones situation doesnt allow them to go the traditional route. Just asking. I did go the traditionalroute.It took me ten years to get my commercial lisence. I went from FBO to FBO and flew when Ihad the money. I am in Iraq now with the NAtional Guard trying to earn money for my multi and CFI.

 

[RSixer]

I have a question about PFT. I notice a lot of people get ill when you mention PFT. I really dont kow much about it so I dont have an opinion. But I would like to ask this. I am 37 years old and I want to be an airline pilot. If I wait to get the CFI job and bukid hours for 2 years just to get a charter job flying Barons for anotyher two years and then get to an airline.Iwil be too old to have a career. So whats wrong with an older person that wants to be a profesional pilot to do PFT?

PFT is a little vague, we all paid for our training, ratings are not free no matter where you go. If an airline or school states that if you give us $30,000 will put you in the right seat of XXX aircraft. In reallity they would have to fill that seat anyway if it is a two pilot aircraft, they would have to pay someone to sit there. So why not get a person to pay for that seat, it works out great For Them. In return you get no real promises, time that is not that good if you really think about it no PIC, and that is what counts. Truthfully after a while this job that you paid for becomes "just a job" would anyone pay to work at WalMart, no probablly not. After it is all siad and done you are back to square one agian, you might get a regional job, you might not (remember no real promises), but what you will have is a big monthy bill to pay off. Its all about shopping around for training, there are numerous avenues to go down that are alot cheaper, such as pay as you go training, each hour is paid for as you fly them, not pay for them all at once. In my opinion PFT cheapens the pilot profession, it keeps our salaries low because people will do it, when we should be getting paid for what we are worth.

 

[fliynhi]

True, but you don't get to fly at Wal-mart. Unless you're lucky enough to get into their flight dept. The truth is, until the industry gets stronger, and who knows how long that will take, pft will stay put. Like it or not it's most likely here to stay. I can understand an older career changing pilot going this route, but a 19 year old doing; it is just not right. Not that I'm happy about it, but pft is probably here to stay so we'll have to deal with it. I'm sure alot of people on here won't like what I said so go ahead and say what you will.

 

[cale42]

For the record... Key Loan has nothing to do with this and deserves none of the blame. I work for a flight school that used to work with Key Loan. They informed us earlier this year that they would no longer be offering loans to pay for training at non-Title IV schools.(i.e. schools that are not accredited institutions that offer a degree). This means no more loans for flight training, nursing or any other technical style training that key previously financed. From what we were told it was simply a business decision that they were making, they felt financing technical training was a hassle that wasn't worth what they made on it.

It was a bit of a blow for us, Key Loan is one of the only companies that will finance students for the large chunks of money to go from PVT to CFIAI(usually 25-35K even at an FBO). IMHO it is a shame also, because Key usually had the lowest rates of all lenders and by far the best customer service. There are other companies our students can use that will finance these amounts, however I expect in the TAB case Key may have been the only company that would finance their ridiculous costs. I have also heard(heresy only) that students taking out excessive loans they couldn't afford(to go to TAB???) and then defaulting on them was part of why Key Loan got out of that side of the business all together.

Just an interesting(at least mildly) sidenote to this story.

 

[mayday1]

In my opinion PFT cheapens the pilot profession, it keeps our salaries low because people will do it, when we should be getting paid for what we are worth.

Rsixer, in my opinion PFT has little to do with the low salaries that airlines pay. As long as throngs of qualified pilots line up to take FO jobs that start at $18k a year, salaries will always be low -- it's supply and demand. Airline mgmt is only going to pay what they need to. Wouldn't you if you were running a business?

Most on this board argue how awful PFT is to the airline industry. I argue that every pilot that accepts an FO job at some below poverty level salary validates airline mgmt's position that they can get away with paying these below poverty level salaries.

 

[250 KIAS]

Here is an article from the student's viewpoint.


http://www.wesh.com/news/4618631/detail.html

Oh my god, I tried to open that article, and when I right clicked on the link, it said "Open New Tab." I almost pissed myself....Anyone got any more weed?

 

[BrianNC]

.....

 

[100LL... Again!]

I have a question about PFT. I notice a lot of people get ill when you mention PFT. I really dont kow much about it so I dont have an opinion. But I would like to ask this. I am 37 years old and I want to be an airline pilot. If I wait to get the CFI job and bukid hours for 2 years just to get a charter job flying Barons for anotyher two years and then get to an airline.Iwil be too old to have a career. So whats wrong with an older person that wants to be a profesional pilot to do PFT? Its gets you to your goal before you get too old Everyones situation doesnt allow them to go the traditional route. Just asking. I did go the traditionalroute.It took me ten years to get my commercial lisence. I went from FBO to FBO and flew when Ihad the money. I am in Iraq now with the NAtional Guard trying to earn money for my multi and CFI.

Because you are attempting to shortcut the process and sit in a seat you are not truly qualified to fill. Have some self-respect and only accept positions you are fully competent to fill.

Why would you want to be a trainee gear-jerker who is so far behind the airplane that the captain is practically single-pilot?

If you never get to the airlines, well - maybe you won't. Your goal should be to be a GOOD PILOT, and then when you have that licked, worry about whether you get an airline job.

I guarantee that there are individuals with more experience and skill who want that airline job - why should you move to the front simply because you want to?

Sorry to be a jerk, but as I have said before, it is more important to deserve what you get than to try to get what you think you deserve.

 

[350DRIVER]

If you took all the money from the rich and gave it to the poor, the rich would have it all back in a year. If you're dumb enough to spend a 100k for ratings you can get anywhere else like a local FBO for less than half that price, then you deserve to get screwed.


You make your own bed then sleep in it!

No matter how much money you give an idiot, he will be broke in a year, that's just the way it is and always will be.
I have no sympathy for PFT scum, I love it!

You are right on the money my friend, I couldn't have said it any better if I tried. . A pretty good lesson for them all down there.

Eighty students were paying a combined $5 million to $8 million to TAB Express to be trained as pilots for prop planes and jets and as instructors.

What a deal Kong says he is over the "mad stage" though and now just wants to get on with his life!.

 

[Ralgha]

True, but you don't get to fly at Wal-mart.

How does that make any difference at all? Even people who love the kind of job that Wal-Mart offers would not pay to work there.

Flying for an airline is a JOB. The sooner you get that into your head, the better off you'll be.

 

[fliynhi]

How does that make any difference at all? Even people who love the kind of job that Wal-Mart offers would not pay to work there.

Flying for an airline is a JOB. The sooner you get that into your head, the better off you'll be.

It's true that flying for an airline is a job. I was just making a smarta$$ comment. Unless you're running a particular airline, there is nothing you can do about pft. You can try to influence someone into not doing it but you can't force them. Like I said in my earlier post, pft is here to stay until the industry turns around and there are more jobs than pilots. Yes, it sucks!! But the sooner you get that into your head the happier you can be. Why fret about those things that you cannot change?

 

[RSixer]

. Like I said in my earlier post, pft is here to stay until the industry turns around and there are more jobs than pilots.

Actually, PFT has nothing to do with how well the Airline Industry is doing, except for the fact that these start up pay for your job companies seem to flurish when the Airlines are hiring, hurry up and get your time before they stop is the ploy they pitch, the fact of the matter is that PFT is here to stay as long as people are willing to pay rediculous amounts of money for a coulple hundred hours of F/O time. Realisticlly 300 hours SIC in a 1900 doesn't get you all that far, your still gonna have to strap on a C172 for another 1000 hours just to be marketable as a pilot. Agian I don't insult people for doing this kind of trianing, I just dispise companies that exploit the profession, it sets the standard that pilots are a dime a dozen willing to pay for thier jobs.

 

[Diesel]

This makes me laugh reading this.

With a little research future pilots of tab could have done a little research and found he had to get out of VRB real quick one day.

Bob was running the same show down there and things happened and he had to leave quickly. He surfaced in deland and was up to his old tricks.

A couple of years ago there were a couple of tab instructors on here trying to tell us how good the training was. How they are more professional because they are wearing uniforms and stuff. We all had a pretty good laugh and threads eventually died out.

The same pft stuff comes up again and again but i feel bad for students of tab express. If they had done more research they would have understood how dangerous it was to put there money with TAB.

Of course there still are some king airs down in VRB that haven't been picked up yet if you want some parts.

 

[Hung Start]

[Why would you want to be a trainee gear-jerker who is so far behind the airplane that the captain is practically single-pilot?


To my Comrade Mr. 100LL

I have flown many, many hours as a single pilot. In my humble opinion, anytime you have a F/O that is not qualified and/or competent, you are worse off than being single pilot.
At least when your alone you can rely on the one guy you have, and not constantly worry about the fool next to you.
Some people are qualified at 300 hours, some are deadly at 10,000.
But thinking you can just buy your way in without total commitment is just plain wrong.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes it was an expensive school, but how else do you get actual airline pilots (furloughed, retired and a few active) come and teach unless you pay them well? I do agree that the uniforms were pretty ridiculous though.

Why do you need actual airline pilots to teach you? That isnt going to make you a better pilot, or help you get into an airline, if thats what you want. Thats just some of TAB marketing you fell for.

And no, most people would not have spent 100K at a TAB express kind of program if they had that kind of resource. A lot of people could have gotten such loans but chose not to.

With 100K, you could easily get all of your ratings, and lots of twin time, and have no problem getting a job. Actually you could do it and have a lot of money left over too. Anytime you hear the word "program" in regard to aviation training, it means someone wants your money and a lot of it. And you might very well get little to nothing in return for it.

Dont fall for clever marketing. You will probably be more careful after this, but there are going to be a lot of people in financial trouble because of this, and if they had checked around and asked "actual airline pilots" instead of thinking it will be so great to be taught by them...

 

[JetBlast2000]

With 100K, you could easily get all of your ratings, and lots of twin time, and have no problem getting a job. Actually you could do it and have a lot of money left over too.

[font=&quot]Not only that, but you could buy your own twin and or get some partners. Rent the plane out when your not using it, and eventually teach in the a/p. Sell your share in a year or two and get a lot of your money back out… You’d probably learn more about the industry from doing it yourself.[/font]