SWAPA wants all FAPA Pilots

[USMC319]

BTW, if your feelings are indicative of the rest of FAPA, enjoy RAH.

spciii,
You are accusing a FAPA pilot of making these statements. Be careful not to throw people under the bus, as most of the anti-SWA posts are being made by annonymous poters that dont work for Frontier.

 

[Cardinal]

OK, everyone turn down your eyes, I'm about to do math in public.............His DOB is '52 so that means he'll be 60 in '12(don't carry those gozintas when you're sipherin).........so according to the guys who knew him at Morris, maybe he will comb his hair for once when he interviews!

Dick

He doesn't have any hair. Jokes on you.

 

[ivauir]

The vast majority of F9 pilots have applications on file to be the junior SWA pilot.

QUESTIONS?

 

[Cardinal]

The vast majority of F9 pilots have applications on file to be the junior SWA pilot.

QUESTIONS?

I am less and less impressed with this SWA "culture."

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

I find it interesting that when a deal with SWA and Frontier is talked about most seem to think that SWA will HAVE to integrate the Frontier pilots because it's in their contract or because of the McCaskill/Bond legislation. Yet not one person says the same thing when a deal with RAH and Frontier is talked about, why is that? I remember someone saying that, (paraphrasing somewhat) RAH promised that we'd be run seperately. Well what if RAH uses any of Frontiers assets, doesn't that require an integration then? And does anyone seriously believe that sort of "promise" anyways?


SLC

 

[USMC319]

The vast majority of F9 pilots have applications on file to be the junior SWA pilot.
QUESTIONS?

ivauir,

I don't know how many F9ers had applications at WN, but before you get on a pedistal, I'll guess that most Frontier pilots had applications in with every airline in the country (and around the world) last summer. Conventional Wisdom said that Frontier had no chance to survive. So sure, a lot of guys got started on a plan-B.

Since then, the company has pulled itself away from the verge of extinction and has actually thrived in large part due to the outstanding work of its pilots and staff. In fact F9 is the only profitable airline from both an operational and net basis so far this year. Its expensive to operate in BK, they are looking to shed that anchor and really move forward now. Frontier has an investor and is poised to grow, so the application arguement is weak at best and childish at worst. How many of the RAH list had applications in at F9 or WN?? It doesn't matter.

 

[airlinepilot]

How many pay cuts have the pilots taken at F9? What is the percentage?

 

[PCL_128]

I find it interesting that when a deal with SWA and Frontier is talked about most seem to think that SWA will HAVE to integrate the Frontier pilots because it's in their contract or because of the McCaskill/Bond legislation. Yet not one person says the same thing when a deal with RAH and Frontier is talked about, why is that? I remember someone saying that, (paraphrasing somewhat) RAH promised that we'd be run seperately. Well what if RAH uses any of Frontiers assets, doesn't that require an integration then? And does anyone seriously believe that sort of "promise" anyways?


SLC

It sounds as though Bedford really intends to keep them completely separate, but if he doesn't, then yes, the RAH scope language requires a seniority integration. In fact, the RAH scope language is so tight that Bedford will be required to purchase F9 with investor money that is separate from RAH, because if RAH purchases the company, the scope language requires an integration whether he wants to keep them separate or not.

 

[ivauir]

ivauir,

Frontier has an investor and is poised to grow, so the application arguement is weak at best and childish at worst. How many of the RAH list had applications in at F9 or WN?? It doesn't matter.

Which investor is that?

What growth plans? WN actually has aircraft on order. That growth and the corresponding seniority progression should benefit current SWA pilots first.

It absolutely does matter. These are active applications BTW. These applications are an indicator of the relative desirability of a job at WN vs F9. There is no comparison in these career expectations. Sorry if it offends Cardinal's delicate sensibilities but the reality is that pilots at WN are in a better situation anyway you slice it. W2, growth, benefits. A fact recognized by at least 450 F9 pilots. Anything other than a staple will hurt the job security of SWA pilots, will delay upgrade for SWA pilots and would not pass the "fair and equitable" test.

Sorry F9 guys, you are more than welcome, but we're not interested in inheriting your instability and potential of furlough.

 

[SWA/FO]

Can someone send me a private message for the counter phone number or office phone number for Frontier in DTW? I need to talk to the station manager there....

 

[RedDogC130]

story please? It must be good if you want to talk to a station manager

 

[spciii]

spciii,
You are accusing a FAPA pilot of making these statements. Be careful not to throw people under the bus, as most of the anti-SWA posts are being made by annonymous poters that dont work for Frontier.

Fair enough. Point taken. I thought I left myself an out with the "if your feelings are indicative" statement, but maybe not. . . .

 

[firstthird]

In fact F9 is the only profitable airline from both an operational and net basis so far this year. Its expensive to operate in BK, they are looking to shed that anchor and really move forward now.

really? I'm not a CPA but it seems to beggar belief that someone can claim, in all seriousness, that they are doing the best of all the airlines financially, while they are in bankruptcy.

here is a tip, what you shed in bankruptcy is your debt obligations. the reason you can't come out of bankruptcy is that no investor would give you exit financing because even after the bankruptcy plane wash to get rid of all that pesky debt obligation, F9's future was in doubt. RAH and SWA aren't offering exit financing but are looking to buy the whole shebang for about 100 million.

it isn't a judgment on the character or quality of F9 people. it just is what it is. to deny that F9 had a rough patch is to deny reality. maybe SWA will be there some day, I don't know. but as of today, we are actually making money AND paying our debts AND paying our employees a fair wage AND matching their 401Ks. F9 employees deserve as much. maybe not from SWA, that isn't for me to decide, it is up to the judge but this refrain of 'we've made money for 8 months' borders on delusional. yes you have but you need to look at how you got there and why no one would give you exit financing. it is called context. and in a situation like this, it is everything.

 

[SWA/FO]

No story on the station manager....

I agree with the above post.

 

[En Mort Main]

Second try

Since no one replied to my earlier post i will quote msyelf and wait for a response since i am very interested in the feeling out there. Is it fair for WN to staple and not RP, and why.

Southwest is by far one of my favorite airlines to travel with...The aircraft could use more luxury but the airline itself is tops. With that being said Southwest is about profits. No acquisition southwest has ever made has turned out beneficial for the airline being aquired. Why is there a belief that this will change?
How many southwest people entered their opinions in the NW/DAL and AWA/U.S. Airways intergration about what is fair...and these same people are now saying a staple is fair. And yet they say a staple of midwest onto republic would not be fair. Is this a case of i want my cake and eat it to.....I just want to recap what i'm saying in order to clarify it for some on this board.
People on here believe it is fair for WN to staple F9.
But those same people are saying it is not fair for RP to staple YX.
And hypothetically if RP wins the auction for F9 will the same WN people that believe the stable is fair still believe a staple of F9 onto RP to be fair?
Both of these are purchases not mergers. Is this a case of what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

EN MORT MAIN

 

[firstthird]

EMM,
I think we all ignored your post because it postulates some pretty far fetched ideas.

No acquisition southwest has ever made has turned out beneficial for the airline being aquired.

to start with, I'd say that most ex-Morris, now 15 year SWA captains, might feel differently. maybe they would have been better off staying with Morris (a 2 year old airline at the time) than coming to SWA. Some of them did sue and there were some hard feelings, but a reasonable observer could conclude that this M&A worked out pretty well for the guys getting acquired. so I take issue with your very first point which you present as self-evident. oh yes, and did you know how Morris got integrated? straight staple.

People on here believe it is fair for WN to staple F9.
But those same people are saying it is not fair for RP to staple YX.

I haven't seen much discussion from SWA pilots about what RAH should or shouldn't do with F9 should they acquire them. We can all look to what they did and are doing wiht Midwest as a recent and relevant lesson. 2/3s of Midwest pilots are on furlough while E170s and E190s fly around painted in Midwest colors, based in Midwest hubs, flown by RAH pilots.

the 'fair and equitable' has something to do with 'career expectations.' if, and I haven't seen it, but if someone is saying that a staple of F9 to RAH is unfair, it has to do with these concepts. F9 flies bigger metal for more money (even in bankruptcy) than RAH guys are currently flying. F9 could be argued to have better career expectations than RAH guys. but frankly, if RAH gets F9, it is no longer the concern of SWA pilots. they won't be SWAPA.

If RAH bought DAL through some big leveraged buyout, are you proposing that DAL should be stapled? what if DAL bought RAH? career expectations is what you are missing in your analysis. it is a pretty simple and accepted premise of AGM discussions. not so simple to execute fairly but anyone familiar with the landscape of M&A wouldn't be asking such a blatantly self-serving and, pardon me for saying so, ignorant, question.

 

[FlyinGuy]

The problem is that you have a big airline and a small airline. You have a high paid airline and a lower paid airline. What is fair? If F9 is stapled, they lose seniority but get a huge gain in pay. If they are integrated they keep seniority and get a bigger gain in pay. Where is the benefit for the SWAPA pilots? Only in a staple. Why, because F9 gets the money and SWA gets some seniority. It is the only thing that will not be a windfall for one side.

 

[Splert]

SWA announced the bid is now a firm bid.

 

[airlinepilot]

Anymore info?

SWA announced the bid is now a firm bid.

Do you have site or source?

 

[Splert]

Yahoo finance.

 

[airlinepilot]

Here is the web location:


http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUKN1054048220090810


Not much info....will be looking for that soon!

 

[airlinepilot]

SWA Binding Bid Info

Southwest Airlines has added a news release to its Investor Relations website.

Title: Southwest Airlines Submits Bid to Acquire Frontier Airlines in Bankruptcy Court Proceeding
Date: 8/10/2009 2:31:00 PM

For a complete listing of our news releases, please click here

--Low-Fare Carrier Submits Bid of More Than $170 million
DALLAS, Aug 10, 2009 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) confirmed today that the carrier submitted its binding cash offer of more than $170 million to acquire Frontier Airlines, which will be sold at auction as part of Frontier's bankruptcy case. The bid was submitted to Frontier in accordance with the procedures established in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York.
Over the next week, Southwest will discuss its offer with the various interested parties. The auction is expected to commence on Thursday, Aug. 13. Once the auction is concluded, the bankruptcy court must still approve the selection of the winning bidder. From there, the bid will undergo review by the United States Department of Justice, which is normal and customary when one airline is purchasing another.

At this point, it is premature for Southwest to release complete details of its offer, which may change during the auction process before a winning bid is approved by the bankruptcy court. The offer contemplates that Southwest acquire approximately 80 percent of Frontier's existing Airbus fleet, which translates into about 40 aircraft, plus all of Lynx. Initially, Frontier would operate its Airbus aircraft as it does today, with a planned retirement of the Airbus fleet and transition to Southwest's Boeing 737s over a period of approximately 24 months. Despite the initial reduction in the fleet, Southwest intends to maintain all existing markets, as well as add new nonstop routes from Denver that are not served by either Southwest or Frontier today.

"We believe our bid ultimately should be seen as the strongest offer by all interested parties, including Frontier, its creditors, Employees, and Customers," said Gary Kelly, Southwest's Chairman of the Board, President, and CEO. "Southwest is a financially stable Company, and through this acquisition, will continue to provide Denver its historically low fares into the future. Frontier is up for sale. The bankruptcy process will lead to change at Frontier in any scenario. Given Southwest's history and track record of running a successful airline, we believe that our bid is the best option on the table for Frontier, Southwest, and the traveling public. A successful acquisition of Frontier Airlines by Southwest will expand a network of legendary low fares to additional cities, add jobs into Southwest through growth, and strengthen low-fare competitive pressure in Denver and other cities."

To view a blog regarding the news, please visit: www.blogsouthwest.com/blog/southwest-airlines-ceo-gary-kelly-bid-frontier.

Frontier filed for bankruptcy court protection in April 2008. Southwest submitted its initial indication of interest to acquire Frontier Airlines on July 30, 2009, which gave the carrier an opportunity to engage with Frontier in the due diligence required to determine the scope of a binding proposal.

After 38 years of service, Southwest Airlines offers a reliable product with exemplary Customer Service. Southwest Airlines is the most productive airline in the sky and offers Customers a comfortable traveling experience with all premium leather seats and plenty of legroom. Southwest recently updated its gate areas and improved its boarding procedure to make flying Southwest Airlines even more convenient and simple. Southwest Airlines currently serves 66 cities in 33 states, and announced service to Boston Logan, which begins Aug. 16, 2009, and to Milwaukee, which begins Nov. 1, 2009. Southwest currently operates more than 3,300 flights a day and has more than 35,000 Employees systemwide.

This news release contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Specific forward-looking statements relate to the Company's interest in acquiring Frontier Airlines and the Company's operating plans and expectations related to the acquisition. These forward-looking statements are based on the Company's current information, intent, expectations, and projections and are not guarantees of future actions or performance. These statements involve risks, uncertainties, assumptions, and other factors that are difficult to predict and that could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by them. Factors include, among others, (i) the Company's ability to receive all necessary approvals, including any necessary governmental or regulatory approvals and the approval of the Company's Board of Directors; (ii) results of the Company's due diligence; (iii) changes to the Company's business plan and strategies; (iv) the Company's being named the winning bidder in the auction process in Frontier's bankruptcy proceeding and the Company's ability to obtain all necessary approvals for the acquisition in Frontier's bankruptcy proceeding, including approval by Frontier's creditors and the bankruptcy court of Frontier's plan of reorganization, (v) the Company's ability to timely and effectively prioritize its revenue and cost reduction initiatives; and (vi) other factors, as described in the Company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including the detailed factors discussed under the heading "Risk Factors" in the Company's Annual Report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2008. Therefore, the Company can give no assurance that any bid it submits to acquire Frontier will be successful or that any subsequent acquisition will be completed.

www.southwest.com

SOURCE Southwest Airlines

http://www.southwest.com
If you are unable to click on the link above, please copy and paste the URL below into a web browser
http://www.southwest.com/investor_relations/fs_news_releases.html
Southwest Airlines, Investor Relations Department, 2702 Love Field Drive, Dallas, TX 75235
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[StaySeated]

Should we change the name of this thread to "SWA wants 80% of FAPA pilots"?

I wonder if the F9 BOD and the UCC will accept the elimination of virtually all of the administrative positions and the furlough of 20% of the flight crews?

That appears to be the $170 Million dollar question.

Personally, I would rather be furloughed and have recall rights to SWA then be owned by RAH.

But I don't have any say in the matter so I am just going to drink heavily watch from the sidelines!

 

[airlinepilot]

The good news for manning is that the new FAA rules with shorter crew rest and max duty (weekly and monthly) will require more pilots and FA's.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

Personally, I would rather be furloughed and have recall rights to SWA then be owned by RAH.

But I don't have any say in the matter so I am just going to drink heavily watch from the sidelines!

Bingo!

 

[FDJ2]

--Low-Fare Carrier Submits Bid of More Than $170 million
DALLAS, Aug 10, 2009 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- Initially, Frontier would operate its Airbus aircraft as it does today, with a planned retirement of the Airbus fleet and transition to Southwest's Boeing 737s over a period of approximately 24 months.

It's always interesting to see small shifts in a proposal over time. When comparing the recent statement above with the original statement below, I noticed a small change as it pertains to F9 employees.

"As we are able to retire Airbus aircraft, we will add Boeing 737 aircraft. Over time, Frontier Employees would be hired into Southwest as needed to support our fleet growth and expanded operations.

Looks like the idea of buying F9, dumping the employees, then rehiring them as needed isn't going over too well and SWA is changing it's tune in order to win the auction. Additionally, SWA is planning on maintaining all the markets and even growing some, which means that this acquisition shouldn't cost any F9 pilot jobs.

Hopefully a fair and equitable negotiated single seniority list can be achieved and arbitration avoided.

 

[En Mort Main]

"to start with, I'd say that most ex-Morris, now 15 year SWA captains, might feel differently. maybe they would have been better off staying with Morris (a 2 year old airline at the time) than coming to SWA. Some of them did sue and there were some hard feelings, but a reasonable observer could conclude that this M&A worked out pretty well for the guys getting acquired. so I take issue with your very first point which you present as self-evident. oh yes, and did you know how Morris got integrated? straight staple. -Firstthird"

So this was fair? Outcomes justify means?

" haven't seen much discussion from SWA pilots about what RAH should or shouldn't do with F9 should they acquire them. We can all look to what they did and are doing wiht Midwest as a recent and relevant lesson. 2/3s of Midwest pilots are on furlough while E170s and E190s fly around painted in Midwest colors, based in Midwest hubs, flown by RAH pilots. -firstthird"

As far as i understand it Midwest furloughed their own employees prior to RP purchasing them, similiar to ATA and WN. So should RP be blamed for Midwest failures as WN should be blamed for ATA's failures?

"the 'fair and equitable' has something to do with 'career expectations.' if, and I haven't seen it, but if someone is saying that a staple of F9 to RAH is unfair, it has to do with these concepts. F9 flies bigger metal for more money (even in bankruptcy) than RAH guys are currently flying. F9 could be argued to have better career expectations than RAH guys. but frankly, if RAH gets F9, it is no longer the concern of SWA pilots. they won't be SWAPA. -firstthird"

So bankruptcy and liquidation is better career expectations that a strong growing regional because the planes are bigger. ATA i guess had some awesome career expectations flying the LT1011 and 757's, wait nevermind their company was in Bankruptcy.

"If RAH bought DAL through some big leveraged buyout, are you proposing that DAL should be stapled? what if DAL bought RAH? career expectations is what you are missing in your analysis. it is a pretty simple and accepted premise of AGM discussions. not so simple to execute fairly but anyone familiar with the landscape of M&A wouldn't be asking such a blatantly self-serving and, pardon me for saying so, ignorant, question.-thirdfirst"

I'm not proposing anything just asking how people view "fairness." And the responses seem to be what i suspected. The belief that southwest is the greatest thing since slice bread and OMG not a regional.
When the reality is both WN and RP are strong companies with proven track records. Both airlines undercut competition to make money... One is praised for doing this WN... One is loathed RP. Just trying to find out why .....they have both screwed the legacies.

EN MORT MAIN

 

[Bally]

SAVE CJ!!! Amen Brother!!!

 

[waveflyer]

When the reality is both WN and RP are strong companies with proven track records. Both airlines undercut competition to make money... One is praised for doing this WN... One is loathed RP. Just trying to find out why .....they have both screwed the legacies.

EN MORT MAIN

this can't be understated- one carrier provides a good paycheck, fantastic benefits, great quality of life and schedules, and compete by working harder and being more efficient- every pay decrease to get a foothold in the industry has been rewarded and promises kept.

The other has a MUCH different purpose and existence.

If it's a mystery to you why pilots view these companies in such a different light- Thats pretty incredible

 

[Richard Gozinya]

this can't be understated- one carrier provides a good paycheck, fantastic benefits, great quality of life and schedules, and compete by working harder and being more efficient- every pay decrease to get a foothold in the industry has been rewarded and promises kept.

The other has a MUCH different purpose and existence.

If it's a mystery to you why pilots view these companies in such a different light- Thats pretty incredible

All of this seems to be just completely glossed over/overlooked/disregarded/ignored, but it does come down to money.......and the F9 guys are going to get a sh1t pot full of it at Willie Nelson, but yet they don't seem to want it.......AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!....................well, except maybe the 450 with applications in at SW, of course they don't count.


When the offer for employment from SW is forwarded to the pilot group at F9, do you think they'll vote it it? The answer is HELL YES!

Dick