SWAPA TA failure just cost me $1,200 per month

[PropPiedmont]

If you're a reserve FO you just missed out on a big paycut.

 

[C-21Pilot]

Shearedshaft,

If the company comes back with less of a raise and no retro do you think the new TA will pass ?

I think if SWA comes back with any less of a raise and no retro, it will change the vote from 51/49 no, to 90/10 no.

That is the beauty of voting down this TA, even though by a small margin. If the company comes back something worse, it will fail again.

 

[shearedshaft]

Then what? Vote no twice and we still don't have code share protection or raises. Are you going to take a job action?

The company doesn't care if you keep voting no. This last no vote saved Gary Kelly $396 million over 2.5 years. Why would he be quaking in his boots if we put it off once again?

 

[C-21Pilot]

I'll take a job action, will you ?

 

[328dude]

Then what? Vote no twice and we still don't have code share protection or raises. Are you going to take a job action?

The company doesn't care if you keep voting no. This last no vote saved Gary Kelly $396 million over 2.5 years. Why would he be quaking in his boots if we put it off once again?

You bet I would vote no again. So you make an extra $1200 a month, but the lance guys lose what? 30/40% yearly pay? So shaft others as long as you get yours right?

Typical, I got mine attitude, especially for a DAL guy.

 

[scoreboardII]

Are you going to take a job action?

Yes.

The majority have spoken, you must respect and agree to participate with the will of that majority.

Now, are you going to cross that line?

 

[jehtplane]

I am a senior FO at SWA and my pay rate was scheduled to go from $108 to $121 after the TA (from about $120/hour to $135/hr).

I fly 120 trips per month, so the TA failure cost me $1,200 per month. Every month.

Would I write a check for $1,200 per month to keep ELITT the same? Nope. How about to let lance captains continue to take senior FO lines and give them to junior FOs? Nope.

This is the interesting part: I've asked every FO I've come in contact with in the last week what they thought their gross pay raise was going to be if the TA passed. Not one had an answer.

Luckily, SWA just announced 9% lower revenues for last month, so I'm sure our pay raises will be even better (not) when we go back to the table.

You guys don't know a good thing when it's looking you in the eye.

I will tell you what, I will trade you my unemployment check for your $108.00 dollars an hour. Talk about someone that does not see the big picture. Me Me Me Me Me!

 

[flyingitalian]

Current side letter requires the company to grow in order to code share. It also requires one leg on SWA in order to code share. The new code share released the company from both of these requirements.

Im a senior FO too my brother and I loved the new pay rates. I voted no however because my pay is TFP x trips flown. I make A LOT of money from extra fly, vja etc. There is no way Im going to vote to be tied to an open time system that does not exist, and is not tested. Want to change it and make it less expensive for the company....great ... bing it on, but lets test it first and give me an implementation plan.

 

[shearedshaft]

Current side letter requires the company to grow in order to code share.

Could you quote where it says they are "required" to grow? And maybe the part where it says what happens if they don't?

Im a senior FO too my brother and I loved the new pay rates. I voted no however because my pay is TFP x trips flown. I make A LOT of money from extra fly, vja etc. There is no way Im going to vote to be tied to an open time system that does not exist, and is not tested. Want to change it and make it less expensive for the company....great ... bing it on, but lets test it first and give me an implementation plan.

So you are willing to write a check for $1,000 or $1,100 per month (every month) because you're scared that a new system that has multiple open time closings per day, and allows true voluntary JA hasn't been tested?

It's too bad you loved the new pay rates, they're gone.

 

[Homer Jay]

Could you quote where it says they are "required" to grow? And maybe the part where it says what happens if they don't?





So you are willing to write a check for $1,000 or $1,100 per month (every month) because you're scared that a new system that has multiple open time closings per day, and allows true voluntary JA hasn't been tested?

It's too bad you loved the new pay rates, they're gone.

I'm willing to bet this is your first airline gig. Pay rates are nice, but work rules, scheduling issues, and scope are always the most important!

 

[shearedshaft]

I'm willing to bet this is your first airline gig. Pay rates are nice, but work rules, scheduling issues, and scope are always the most important!

Except in this contract, the open time was going to be a ton more flexible, the drawdown of the lance program was going to let me be a captain longer and an FO shorter, ELITT wouldn't have continued to get pounded by lances and first year FOs, so ELITT would have actually started working on me and to top it off, there was no domestic code share allowed.

Where was the problem?

 

[relief tube]

Perfect example of someone who absolutely does not see the big picture.

he doesn't have time to see the big picture....he's too busy flying all the time.

"Go home and take care of your kids before they rob me in 10 years"

 

[shearedshaft]

I see the big picture, and I fully understand both the TA and the side letters. From the sounds of you guys, you believed the hype and gave up all our raises and our codeshare protection.

This is because you don't understand ELITT and the damage that Lances do to your schedule flexibility, you don't understand the damage to your schedule flexibility first year guys do, and you haven't read word-by-word the code share restrictions in the new TA and compared them to the nonsense in SL32.

The new open time would have allowed us to actually bid on VJA instead of crossing our fingers, open time would have filtered direct to pilots instead of being slid to "favorite son" tournament players at the last minute.

It wouldn't have made a difference to the lance giveaways, since the top 3.2% will still get the turn lines--there aren't that many turn lines. Ask a junior lance if they're getting turns. Nope, the junior lance is using ELITT and TTGA and screwing up the net zero.

I can't understand why you guys don't want protection from RJs, I've heard several different times that Republic has been in talks with SWA. But we voted to allow RJs, so have fun, at least we didn't get raises to go along with our codeshare loss.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Just got the memo. Southwest Airlines ceases operations due to their TA being rejected on the first go around.

Seriously, has anyone ever bought a car or a house? Who takes the first offer?

 

[Herkdrv]

Wow, you sound like a UAL pilot circa 2000: "Give me my raises... I don't care about the outsourcing Section 1 allows." Your biggest pay raise will come when SWA grows its own fleet (instead of Volaris & WestJet) and you upgrade to Captain. Then you'll get your lousy $1200 a month and then some.

Spot on! You know it always amazes me that as pilots, we are constantly learning form others mistakes as well as our own. How many countless of hours have you spent on the sim, or reading about mishaps in order to NOT repeat the same mistakes others have. And yet when it comes to contract negotiations how many times times have we repeated the same mistakes?

Nice job whining about the money you potentially lost when so many are out on the street! Karma is a bitch. Always remember that. You may not realize it now, but we have done you a huge favor voting this turd of a contract down. The sad part is you will have forgotten all about it in the future, and once again attempt to screw everything that we have worked so hard for for a few extra bucks. With friends like you who the hell needs enemies!

Herk



P.S. Can't wait till you upgrade and I get to help you calculate what 5% of the tip is on our heavily discounted 1-2-3 50% discount of the food bill.

 

[shearedshaft]

How does voting no help scope or code share? We have zero protection right now, the TA didn't allow any domestic code share. So voting no allows domestic code share. How is allowing domestic code share, RJs, wet leases...good for us?

So you gave up code share protection and raises. Nice work.

 

[StopNTSing]

Seriously, has anyone ever bought a car or a house? Who takes the first offer?

Apparently, 49% of 5900ish...

 

[328dude]

Apparently, 49% of 5900ish...

Bingo, OBTW, I love you!!!!

 

[Boxboy]

Just got the memo. Southwest Airlines ceases operations due to their TA being rejected on the first go around.

Seriously, has anyone ever bought a car or a house? Who takes the first offer?

Ans: Alaska Pilots

 

[The Victors]

How does voting no help scope or code share? We have zero protection right now, the TA didn't allow any domestic code share. So voting no allows domestic code share. How is allowing domestic code share, RJs, wet leases...good for us?

So you gave up code share protection and raises. Nice work.

I'll help you out. I actually agree with alot of what you are saying, except the raise thing. Sure a raise would have been nice, but I'm not pissed about not getting it. We are well paid now and SHOULD always remember that fact. I do agree that we may have just given them away. Most of these cry babies sayin " why did the FA's get a bigger raise, boo hoo" need to wake up and remember it's 2009. And one more thing, it's going to take a job action to stop codeshare. GK is COMMITTED to it. He will not change his mind. He is the boss. Period.

p.s. I laugh at these guys b!tching about elitt. Everyone knows that if you're not on in the first 5 minutes it's worthless.

 

[GuppyWN]

Except in this contract, the open time was going to be a ton more flexible, the drawdown of the lance program was going to let me be a captain longer and an FO shorter, ELITT wouldn't have continued to get pounded by lances and first year FOs, so ELITT would have actually started working on me and to top it off, there was no domestic code share allowed.

Where was the problem?

Let me be the first to start calling names. Sheardshaft, you are near-sighted.

How can it be possible for an open time system where they call you for every single trip (if you want) to be more flexible?

The drawdown of the lance program, IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER, has any chance of increasing your time in the left seat. It certainly could allow you to be a co-pilot for longer though.

ELITT "pounding" is flexibility. Besides, as a lance, you can't ELITT for more days than you already own. I put every single trip in giveaway right up through my upgrade. I didn't care if I had a 3 day that paid 24.0 it was going bye bye. I used ELITT and TTGA and the incredibly flexible open time system to do very well for myself. You obviously don't know the system or you would be doing more than 120 as a senior FO.

You need to direct your frustration at Gary Kelly. He is the one who has chosen to codeshare while reducing SWA flying - which, BTW, means he will not meet the requirements of SL32. As you know SWA is required to grow by 5% a year if we do ANY codeshare. That sounds better to me than the TA.

ciao,
Gup

 

[shearedshaft]

How can it be possible for an open time system where they call you for every single trip (if you want) to be more flexible?

By letting you see the trips in advance and decide which one you want, on your own schedule, instead of answering the phone and having to decide right there. Half the time I can't take a scheduling call based on what I'm doing. I would much rather have a nice long process to examine and bid on trips. Missed phone calls are a bear. I especially like the option to bid on VJA.

The drawdown of the lance program, IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER, has any chance of increasing your time in the left seat. It certainly could allow you to be a co-pilot for longer though.

This is simple math, and you need to review yours. Fewer lances equals more captain hard lines. Fewer lances equal fewer FO hard lines. Spending less time in the lance program means you spend less time as an FO and more as a captain.

ELITT "pounding" is flexibility.

It's flexibility to the lance.

To the rest of us FOs, it equals net zero for the whole month, reducing any possible flexibility--especially for a weekday flier. Your are using a flexibility program to change catagories. You use my ELITT flexibility to change from FO to captain making my net zero a permanent zero. This absolutely sucks for every person that isn't a lance.

You obviously don't know the system or you would be doing more than 120 as a senior FO.]

Does it sound like I don't know the system? Not only do I know it, I know what the effects are. It's some sort of great mystery to most why net zero is always zero on the FO side, even when we're over-manned and getting 85 trip line totals. It's because of Lances changing catagories, cramming ELITT with duty periods. We'll see a bit of a dropoff when the first year guys go to second year pay in September. But you lances will continue to pound on ELITT until you can hold a captain line.

The true answer is that you as a lance should be allowed to bid a line with zero trips on it and then suck up all the captain trips you want. But without that option, using ELITT to change from FO to captain is bad for everyone--but you.

You need to direct your frustration at Gary Kelly. He is the one who has chosen to codeshare while reducing SWA flying

I don't have any frustration, as I said, I'm not worried about near-international because it is only equal to a handful of airplanes. Calgary isn't LGA, or MSP, or BOS.

But RJs to Lubbock, BHM and CRP, that worries me.

As you know SWA is required to grow by 5% a year if we do ANY codeshare. That sounds better to me than the TA.

Not true. Do I have to post it? It says that if they don't meet the growth requirements, they have to meet with the association to discuss possible remedies. Considering the fact that SWA won't be out of compliance until 1) they actually start codesharing and 2) January of 2010 comes, I challenge your SL32 and toss it back at you. "Meet and discuss."

Meeting and discussing the painful rear entry is different than the TA's no domestic code share.

At least admit that the restriction on no domestic code share was a good thing in the TA, it sounds silly when you say that SL32 is better.

 

[DH2WN]

Then what? Vote no twice and we still don't have code share protection or raises. Are you going to take a job action?

The company doesn't care if you keep voting no. This last no vote saved Gary Kelly $396 million over 2.5 years. Why would he be quaking in his boots if we put it off once again?

Because he knows he cannot press on with his codeshare plans without pilot backing. It'll be career suicide.

This no vote is just what the doctor ordered to send a message.

And the dope who started this thread, with the elitt restrictions and open time changes you won't be working 120 TPM so quite your whining.

 

[GuppyWN]

shearedshaft,

I am not concerned with domestic codeshare. We operate the 737 like an RJ operator as it is. Think about that for a moment.

SL32 has just as much "tooth" as the TA. Both were rediculous in the "meet and discuss" aspect. I'd rather REQUIRE growth with any codeshare that allow at least 6% or more while shrinking.

BTW, I'm not a lance so that's Captain Gup to you

Gup

 

[shearedshaft]

And the dope who started this thread, with the elitt restrictions and open time changes you won't be working 120 TPM so quite your whining.

I guess you're not reading this. The ELITT DTC restrictions are only meaningful if the net zero is zero. If the net zero was substantially positive, DTC would be meaningless.

Why is the net zero always zero? Because of lances. It's lances affecting ELITT, not DTC. I'll bet you ten bucks you don't even know the DTC restrictions for July. Hint: they're the same as in the TA, how's them apples? We already have the restrictions, it gets done every summer.

The new open time will have three closings per day, making much more open time flow through the daily system.

It's funny to me: you just gave up $1,000 per month, equal to one turn per month to keep a DTC change that you already live with each summer.

Funny, funny.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm a SENIOR FO and I voted NO. $1200 a month is not enough for me to SELL OUT our Junior Pilots. Our UNION tried, telling everyone "it will pass 3-1" nice to see 50.84% of our guys have a clue. This was a huge win for the Pilot group, without the help of our UNION - we did something never done before at Southwest. We said NO THANKS to the first offer.

 

[shearedshaft]

"If a month fails to comply with any of these performance measurements, the company and association shall promptly meet to identify the cause and discuss appropriate corrective measures."

So we get to discuss measures. Unless, of course, there are "circumstances that have a debilitating effect on the company's operations."

Oh my, I had to fan myself there, this is just the best darned protection we have against code share. Wow, we're lucky to have this, it is so much better than completely restricting domestic code share to zero.

Do you think that if this went to arbitration that the worst recession in 50 years just might, maybe, possibly be considered a "debilitating circumstance on the company's operation"?

If this recession isn't what they were addressing with that "out", what was? Full-out nuclear war that shuts down all our major cities?

And why would you give your entire line away as a captain? Are you playing the tournament game?

 

[shearedshaft]

This is pretty moot, regardless. It failed.

 

[turbodriver]

Seriously, has anyone ever bought a car or a house? Who takes the first offer?

Alaska Airlines MEC, that's who....

 

[HarleyGuy]

Maybe you should gripe on swapa, with your name attached to it (if you have the stones) instead of on anonymous everyone-land. If you have the stones.