SWAPA might like SWA proposal

[CaptAntoineMack]

Lear 70,

This is where your information gets fuzzy. You say earlier that your senior Captains would go from #1 to #1680+, but then say there is a ratio of Captains starting with SWA's 1993 hires. #1680 on the SWA list is a mid 1997 hire.

There a huge difference (about 1000 numbers) between the two.

 

[ASADFW7]

The politics of both sides shows a little something about what is going on. Though swapa is not perfect we are working at respecting our association, and respecting the fact even with the bump to the SWA cba the AAI pilot group has to process the agreement differently. If swapa was posting the details we would still be bullying and beating AAI down with even a just the facts post. I am sorry for the disparity that is between us. It existed before September 27th and has been beaten to death since.

I hope when everything comes out the middle ground that was negotiated will work for both sides. A long back and forth for one or two percent may not help either side. I already know our senior first officers hate the no bump and flush, and many AAI pilots hate the disparity of seniority. I am just glad I am not anywhere else right now. I would rather work this out between us than trying to figure out the scraps some place else. SWA first officers make captain wages at most other companies. Not selling this, I will be an first officer for a long while longer myself.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70,

This is where your information gets fuzzy. You say earlier that your senior Captains would go from #1 to #1680+, but then say there is a ratio of Captains starting with SWA's 1993 hires. #1680 on the SWA list is a mid 1997 hire.

There a huge difference (about 1000 numbers) between the two.

You're absolutely right. If you look back at my post, I said that particular bit of information comes from a secondary source. The first part of it is directly from the MC (it's been pulled off our web board by the MEC now, but it was there for a bit), but that "seniority snapshot" comes from one level down.

While the approximate cutoff points are "close" (especially on the F/O side, which is what my conversation focused on because, let's face it, it's human nature to want to know how we're affected first, then figuring out the bigger picture), the "exact" numbers are data I wasn't given and haven't asked for.

Sorry I don't have more detailed info, just where the general numbers are. We'll have to wait to get the exact ratios and cutoffs, which I hear may be a little bit longer; our Negotiating Committee wasn't available to go to Dallas this week with our Merger Committee (big grievance case with the company this week which involves what was negotiated for our CBA) so they're not going to be out there this Thurs and Fri as planned from what we hear, working on dates first of next week.

 

[Lear70]

The politics of both sides shows a little something about what is going on. Though swapa is not perfect we are working at respecting our association, and respecting the fact even with the bump to the SWA cba the AAI pilot group has to process the agreement differently. If swapa was posting the details we would still be bullying and beating AAI down with even a just the facts post. I am sorry for the disparity that is between us. It existed before September 27th and has been beaten to death since.

I hope when everything comes out the middle ground that was negotiated will work for both sides. A long back and forth for one or two percent may not help either side. I already know our senior first officers hate the no bump and flush, and many AAI pilots hate the disparity of seniority. I am just glad I am not anywhere else right now. I would rather work this out between us than trying to figure out the scraps some place else. SWA first officers make captain wages at most other companies. Not selling this, I will be an first officer for a long while longer myself.

Well-said.

 

[On Your Six]

I can't read what was said, she's already yanked it, but she says that it was from a "SWAPA union official". FWIW

Directly from the horse's mouth: ATL will grow in size insofar as the NUMBER OF DAILY DEPARTURES, however it will be a bit like Nashville. Lots of gates, not as many overnighters, mostly thru-flights (they said that we are 4 times the size of crew base in terms of RON's that we need currently). They *DO* plan on reducing the BASED PILOTS down to 850 total pilots, or 425 crews (mix of 717's and 737's - more 717's than 737's), a little less than 1/2 its current size of a crew base to accommodate 1st and last bank of flying (EMO's and CDO/Red-eyes, which will continue until further notice). This WILL result in displacements (although it will be a while before that starts to happen and isn't going to happen all in one big clump).

Because of the displacements and the way the ratio shook out, the vast
majority of pilots who get displaced from ATL will be bottom of the totem pole in whatever SWA base they get displaced to. However, because it will take up to 3 years from now to complete training and integration, with SWA hiring more new-hires for growth starting 2nd Q next year, those displaced pilots may not be on reserve, depending where they get displaced to. Too many moving parts of that to figure out quite yet (and not all the language has been drafted of course).

The 1,000 shares (if any) aren't for AAI pilots.

From a secondary source (MEC member, not MC), the ratios change quite a bit
for different segments of our list. Most seniority lost is 35% (senior Captains going from #1 to # 1,680+), least seniority lost is 22% - the 3 year F/O's stapled to the bottom. Total 650+ AAI F/O's stapled.

ALL SWA pilots gain relative seniority. No SWA pilot loses one iota of relative seniority OR has a slower upgrade as a result of the integration. Zero-growth numbers are projected 10-12 year (from now) upgrade for AAI senior F/O's (including me, 15-17 years total as an F/O, 8-10 years as a SWA CA), 12-15 more years to upgrade for our mid-level F/O's, 15-17+ for our junior 1/3. Some AAI F/O's may never upgrade. Anything above zero growth at SWA, upgrades happen faster.

No "guaranteed" aircraft growth (the 180 aircraft rumor is pure rumor and is NOT part of the deal nor was it mentioned by GK), but growth more than zero is projected to start once integration starts - fleshing out our Caribbean flying from many different SWA bases.

That's about all I have right now, the rest is speculation and rumor. We're all waiting for the full language to be drafted over the next week or so and see what the MEC does with it.

Still cautiously optimistic. :beer:

Hmmmm. I don't know if I would like that deal as an Airtran pilot? It's obvious GK wants this deal done, with all of the aircraft and RON planning already done apparently. Looking at the other recent arbitration awards, you might be able to get a better deal that way. Maybe even a threat of arbitration might get you a slightly better deal or ratio. Displacement rumors are troubling, unless you can keep all of your current Capt seats, regardless of the bases the planes are going to. More details coming out will help make the vote decision a bit clearer. You don't have to vote yes the first time. Godspeed!



OYS

 

[Cometman]

Hmmmm. I don't know if I would like that deal as an Airtran pilot? It's obvious GK wants this deal done, with all of the aircraft and RON planning already done apparently. Looking at the other recent arbitration awards, you might be able to get a better deal that way. Maybe even a threat of arbitration might get you a slightly better deal or ratio. Displacement rumors are troubling, unless you can keep all of your current Capt seats, regardless of the bases the planes are going to. More details coming out will help make the vote decision a bit clearer. You don't have to vote yes the first time. Godspeed!



OYS

Airtran is very lucky to have you on their side. Apparently they would not know what to do so having you available to tell them what to do must make them feel very good. Keep up the good work. Your parents must be real proud of you.

 

[waveflyer]

Is Fredo part of this misinformation vote no campaign Lear? Bc I've been told he (PCL)and 2 other MEC reps are.

Yes, we've been asked to not discuss rumors until the full language is worked out.

Again for the 1000th time- what motivation is there on ALPA's side to facilitate this smoothly and not drag it out for as long as possible? Why not try to weaken a competitor, try to weaken the culture, and collect north of $250,000/month in dues while dragging it out?-- all while winning points with other ALPA members for fighting the good fight against evil SWA.

PCL- defend yourself- is this you? Lear? Just who exactly is leaking that impartial info. Your statements are right in line with what I'm hearing- there are 2 current and 1 recalled malcontent trying to torpedo this deal....

Ive said all along- im nobody- but i sincerely hope that has consequences for the individuals involved.

 

[texman]

Lear I head it would be a 6-8 year upgrade with no growth mode, using the same numbers.

 

[redflyer65]

Is Fredo part of this misinformation vote no campaign Lear? Bc I've been told he (PCL)and 2 other MEC reps are.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if that were true. I can easily see PCL spinning this out of control, and continueing to kick this can down the road. The reality is that the vast majority would rather put this behind us if it is within a few percentage points of what we preceive as fair. Of course everyone's position is different.

I think AAI ALPA is already in the hole with ALPA national. The numbers would be interesting to see though..

RF

 

[MRW]

6% seniority boost vice 40-50% pay raise and our work rules...I shout BS on this rumor from LEAR as well. This would easily push a 60% no vote from SWA and is no where near what our Union has said would pass the LITMUS test. We will wait and see.

 

[dh82dvr]

so a gain in seniority, upgrades at the expense of AT FO's is not good enough? Oh wait but the AT FO's get a big raise, so not getting weekends or holidays off anymore is a trade off. You might be able to put a value on these things with your family, but I don't.

uke:

 

[Lear70]

6% seniority boost vice 40-50% pay raise and our work rules...I shout BS on this rumor from LEAR as well. This would easily push a 60% no vote from SWA and is no where near what our Union has said would pass the LITMUS test. We will wait and see.

Hey, no worries. Everyone has their personal "happy point", and it's not my place to tell anyone else theirs. You may be right about the SWA vote, maybe not, not my place to say, but I don't make the news, I just report it. It's MEC and MC members putting it on our internal board (before they removed it) and I don't think they'd put out deliberately incorrect info, but YMMV.

Lear I heard it would be a 6-8 year upgrade with no growth mode, using the same numbers.

It will be different for every segment of the list. If you're in that top sliver of our F/O's who get integrated with the SWA junior F/O's, maybe 6-8 years from now? (I don't know, I didn't ask) At my seniority, stapled to the bottom and still 200 deep in line from AAI pilots, 10-12 years is what I was told.

 

[waveflyer]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny. But here's the thing: we, on all sides, are responsible for whether or not we partake and get influenced by him. Waiting sucks, but patience is a virtue.

 

[On Your Six]

Did you guys say there was a no bump and flush policy for the AT captains? Is that for the base, or position and equipment? So, they can remain captains even if their plane is moved out of ATL? Is that true? If so, that would be pretty good.


OYS

 

[jonjuan]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny.

And yet you continue with the rumors and conspiracies. If it gets voted down by either group, you'll get on here and claim that Karl Rove (aka, PCL) was able to make it happen.

 

[Lear70]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny. But here's the thing: we, on all sides, are responsible for whether or not we partake and get influenced by him. Waiting sucks, but patience is a virtue.

They haven't emailed us yet, but our internal message board is so deep in topics on all this (about 9 concurrently running threads), our pilots probably wouldn't listen even if the MEC put out an email to try and squash it.

That said, I'll shut up about it. Sorry, was just trying to dispel a few rumors.

p.s. for those trying to PM me, I cleaned out my inbox, thx.

Edit: The letter from MV and KG to "shut it" just hit our FLiCA e-docs about 10 minutes ago.

 

[slaquer5]

Did you guys say there was a no bump and flush policy for the AT captains? Is that for the base, or position and equipment? So, they can remain captains even if their plane is moved out of ATL? Is that true? If so, that would be pretty good.


OYS

I get it. If I was at Delta i would be concerned also . SWA coming into ATL is going to be like when SWA started Florida .


That did not go to well for dal

 

[Fly4$]

6% seniority boost vice 40-50% pay raise and our work rules...I shout BS on this rumor from LEAR as well. This would easily push a 60% no vote from SWA and is no where near what our Union has said would pass the LITMUS test. We will wait and see.

Just to put things in perspective: Stapling ALL AAI FO's would result in a maximum seniority gain for SWA's bottom FO of 24% ,and 0% gain for the #1 guy, making the average gain 12%.

Stapling the entire AAI pilot group consequently would result in an average gain of 6%. This is not even taking into account any fences. Let's keep the expectations realistic. AAI just doesn't have enough pilots to really make a serious dent in SWA's seniority numbers.

 

[ASADFW7]

I would hold off boasting about flying into ATL will the red belly baby gups are headed over spondivits.

 

[jball2]

I Will! If they'll have me!