SWAPA Comments about 717

[SWA Bubba]

The "SWAPA" comments about the 717" and their perspective of giving the flying the AirTran Captains brought with the deal to SWA f/o's as a good thing has nothing to do with SWAPA??

Obviously it did. On the other hand, what did you expect the SWAPA president to say to his members, especially junior ones who felt disaffected due to the SLI? Seriously, Dan, what? He represents them and their interests, not ALPA guys. It's his job to pass news and the ramifications to his members. Sure it would have been better if his communication had been private, but that never happens these days. Someone with an agenda always leaks it, and then trolls like you use it for fodder.

Thanks for being predictable, however.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Your Welcome! I'm flattered you seem to to put so much importance in my opinion. If you look closely, my posts are not anti SWA. They are more about my perspective that SWA hardly treated the AirTran merger as, to quote "Gary", "a merger we can all be proud of".
As is obvious on here, SWAPA/SWA screwed the pooch with how they handled this 717 deal. It's clear on here that many at SWA think the AirTran folks are just lucky to be there and should be happy with anything they got. I think that kind of attitude should be called out for what it is.

Like -I- have said before, I'm not accusing you of being anti-SWA. I'm accusing you of being anti-Southwest pilots. Which is ironic, because it was SWA, not SWAPA, who didn't "treat the Airtran merger" as you thought would have been proper. But for some reason, you continually bash SWAPA and its pilots as if they contrived to do all of this. Trust me, the overwhelming majority wanted no part of this to begin with. However, it's a reality now, and ALL sides are trying to deal as best as possible.

Can Southwest pilots (and SWAPA folks) say stupid or insensitive things? Of course. On the other hand, so can Airtran/ALPA folks. So can United/Continental guys, so can Alaska guys, and certainly so can Hawaiian guys. Why is it you never take anyone ELSE to task for stupid/insensitive remarks besides Southwest pilots? Why is that, Dan?

In this case, Texman made a positive comment about Airtran guys and used the term "newhire training," without it occurring to him that it might offend anyone. Then a few Airtran guys pointed out that they're not newhires. And then of course, YOU were all over it like stink on you-know-what, as typical "Southwest pilot arrogance/mentality." Jesus, Dan, give it a rest. I was just in Dallas for training, and the Airtran guys I talked to called it "newhire training" themselves. Maybe you should give them a hard time too. No offense was meant. Relax, man! Stand down from Defcon 1!

I'm not sure if it's just your idea of fun to stir up trouble among other airlines' pilots (I dunno--does Hawaiian pay you extra for that?), or if maybe a Southwest pilot dorked your girl or something. Regardless, it's pretty clear that you only jump on Southwest pilots' words and no one elses. Talk to a professional, Dan. Please. For all our sakes.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

The "SWAPA" comments about the 717" and their perspective of giving the flying the AirTran Captains brought with the deal to SWA f/o's as a good thing has nothing to do with SWAPA??

SWAPA had nothing to do with the 717s going to Delta.......

 

[PCL_128]

Obviously it did. On the other hand, what did you expect the SWAPA president to say to his members, especially junior ones who felt disaffected due to the SLI? Seriously, Dan, what? He represents them and their interests, not ALPA guys. It's his job to pass news and the ramifications to his members.

It wouldn't have been difficult at all to write an update to his members that discussed how it would affect them, while still being respectful to the AirTran pilots who he knew would be reading it. He obviously had no desire to do that.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Hey PCL,

Is that the same respect you show with your tag line? Calling him out by name?

And with you as a 'National' rep?

Pot, Kettle.

 

[PCL_128]

I've never claimed to be a "national" anything. Those are the claims of other people.

As far as Chase, he's earned a lack of respect. I've always disagreed with the popular statement that "respect is earned." People should be treated with respect by default, and they earn disrespect. Chase has certainly done more than enough to earn some disrespect from the AirTran pilots.

 

[vixin]

Just like the welcome new hires sign at the training center had to be removed because some had their feelings hurt. I know you arent new hires but jesus you guys are more sensitive then my 4 year old. Maybe we should do everything Airtran related with kid loves. Next we will have to watch some BS video on how to talk to an Airtran pilot in public. I know no SWA pilot has been harmed and we all made out like bandits. Only the Airtran side has a god given right to be displeased with this crap. Its over, done, give it rest already. I am cordial to the Airtran crews I have met and they have returned in kind.

As far as Chase, he's earned a lack of respect. I've always disagreed with the popular statement that "respect is earned." People should be treated with respect by default, and they earn disrespect. Chase has certainly done more than enough to earn some disrespect from the AirTran pilots.

As you have also.

Just for the record I am NOT a SC fan.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Well, PCL, Based on this forum and your outstanding service to your fellow AT pilots, you have also earned your status among future coworkers.

Capt Chase is the SWAPA president. He doesn't represent you, as you clearly like to point out. "WE ARE ALPA" is what you clearly like to display. He is not ALPA. Should he take offense to you calling him out by name?

For the rest- please remember- not one single SWAPA member wanted to buy AT or even had the smallest say in the matter. And I'm sure many of you didn't want to be bought either. It is what it is. Most of us accept that, and promise that MOST of us will welcome you and call you brothers.

But please don't expect us to feel sorry for you. And the same goes for us.

 

[scarlet]

When will SWA buy another airline?

CANCER and it will spread !! ASK AA/United/CAL/USAIR/EASTERN...

SWA needs to get ahead of things and not behind them? Training out of seniority=Lawsuits will come with time !

Most SWA guys know where they are based and live. AT guys (717), no clue where based/ or live? Their bid=nothing?

Training=A whole day on how to read a Dispatch/ 3 days on FMS and FMA? A whole day on RADAR? Hearing 2 weeks could be cut out.

Subscription to behind the times needs to be renewed !

 

[texman]

Like -I- have said before, I'm not accusing you of being anti-SWA. I'm accusing you of being anti-Southwest pilots. Which is ironic, because it was SWA, not SWAPA, who didn't "treat the Airtran merger" as you thought would have been proper. But for some reason, you continually bash SWAPA and its pilots as if they contrived to do all of this. Trust me, the overwhelming majority wanted no part of this to begin with. However, it's a reality now, and ALL sides are trying to deal as best as possible.

Can Southwest pilots (and SWAPA folks) say stupid or insensitive things? Of course. On the other hand, so can Airtran/ALPA folks. So can United/Continental guys, so can Alaska guys, and certainly so can Hawaiian guys. Why is it you never take anyone ELSE to task for stupid/insensitive remarks besides Southwest pilots? Why is that, Dan?

In this case, Texman made a positive comment about Airtran guys and used the term "newhire training," without it occurring to him that it might offend anyone. Then a few Airtran guys pointed out that they're not newhires. And then of course, YOU were all over it like stink on you-know-what, as typical "Southwest pilot arrogance/mentality." Jesus, Dan, give it a rest. I was just in Dallas for training, and the Airtran guys I talked to called it "newhire training" themselves. Maybe you should give them a hard time too. No offense was meant. Relax, man! Stand down from Defcon 1!

I'm not sure if it's just your idea of fun to stir up trouble among other airlines' pilots (I dunno--does Hawaiian pay you extra for that?), or if maybe a Southwest pilot dorked your girl or something. Regardless, it's pretty clear that you only jump on Southwest pilots' words and no one elses. Talk to a professional, Dan. Please. For all our sakes.

Bubba

Your exactly right Bubba. My intentions from day one since 2010 have been only to treat the AT peeps with respect.

As far as NEW HIRE goes, only meant it in a positive way. It was a fun experience and would like to extend that experience to the AT peeps.

I think what should happen is the AT folks at SWA training or just getting out need to share their thoughts and feelings about how it has been for them so far. Basically report back to all the AT peeps via company email, or something.

It's all good

 

[texman]

I've never claimed to be a "national" anything. Those are the claims of other people.

As far as Chase, he's earned a lack of respect. I've always disagreed with the popular statement that "respect is earned." People should be treated with respect by default, and they earn disrespect. Chase has certainly done more than enough to earn some disrespect from the AirTran pilots.

Good point about the respect thing. Never thought of it that way.

 

[PCL_128]

I think what should happen is the AT folks at SWA training or just getting out need to share their thoughts and feelings about how it has been for them so far. Basically report back to all the AT peeps via company email, or something.

It's all good

I think most of us hear from them in one way or another. Phone calls, emails, whatever. Everyone so far has had very positive things to say about how they were treated in training.

 

[canyonblue]

Training=A whole day on how to read a Dispatch/ 3 days on FMS and FMA? A whole day on RADAR? Hearing 2 weeks could be cut out.

Are you new to aviation? Who do you think designed this training? The FAA is the one who decided you needed this long of a course, what would you prefer, one day of training and 13 days of testing?

I'm sure it could of consisted of jumpseating on 4 flights followed up with a weekend of watching TLC's "On the FLY!"

 

[Britpilot]

Are you new to aviation? Who do you think designed this training? The FAA is the one who decided you needed this long of a course, what would you prefer, one day of training and 13 days of testing?

I'm sure it could of consisted of jumpseating on 4 flights followed up with a weekend of watching TLC's "On the FLY!"

No the company designed the training and the FAA approved it, that's how it works.
I have seven years on the 737, do I need 60 days of training to learn how to fly it?

 

[canyonblue]

No the company designed the training and the FAA approved it, that's how it works.
I have seven years on the 737, do I need 60 days of training to learn how to fly it?

That's exactly my point, SWA has to come up with some type of transitional training that the FAA will sign off on. What exactly would you prefer the 2 weeks to be filled up with, multiple testing with your job on the line?

Jeesh!

 

[Britpilot]

That's exactly my point, SWA has to come up with some type of transitional training that the FAA will sign off on. What exactly would you prefer the 2 weeks to be filled up with, multiple testing with your job on the line?

Jeesh!

I didn't suggest anything, you did.

It's not 2 weeks it's 2 MONTHS by the way.:erm:

 

[Lear70]

How are they dealing with 717 pilots who have never flown the 737 before, haven't had ANY systems training on it, don't have the type, etc, etc?

We do a week of self-guided computer-based systems training in initial 737 then another week on switchology, FMS, and avionics, and even the recurrent online version takes almost 2 days to chew through. The company didn't teach you "rebuild the airplane", it was pretty rudimentary stuff to tell the truth, but from what I'm hearing from the training program there at SWA, it's about half that time on systems... more like a review?

Are you expected to have a certain amount of basic 737 systems knowledge before you show up for class? Honest question, a 717 buddy of mine the other day asked about it and I didn't know what to tell him.

As far as the decision to do full initial for those of us already on the plane... above my pay grade. If that's what they want to do, hey, I'm your Huckleberry. Just here to get it done and go out there and make some ASM's for the company. Gnashing teeth about something we can't control is pretty pointless, just have to figure out a way to get the family to me (or vice-versa) on a regular basis so I don't go weeks without seeing them.

 

[madjack]

I have seven years on the 737, do I need 60 days of training to learn how to fly it?

Totally agree, why is the training course for 737 AAI guys the same as a regular new hire?? Good question to ask at training?

 

[texman]

How are they dealing with 717 pilots who have never flown the 737 before, haven't had ANY systems training on it, don't have the type, etc, etc?

We do a week of self-guided computer-based systems training in initial 737 then another week on switchology, FMS, and avionics, and even the recurrent online version takes almost 2 days to chew through. The company didn't teach you "rebuild the airplane", it was pretty rudimentary stuff to tell the truth, but from what I'm hearing from the training program there at SWA, it's about half that time on systems... more like a review?

Are you expected to have a certain amount of basic 737 systems knowledge before you show up for class? Honest question, a 717 buddy of mine the other day asked about it and I didn't know what to tell him.

As far as the decision to do full initial for those of us already on the plane... above my pay grade. If that's what they want to do, hey, I'm your Huckleberry. Just here to get it done and go out there and make some ASM's for the company. Gnashing teeth about something we can't control is pretty pointless, just have to figure out a way to get the family to me (or vice-versa) on a regular basis so I don't go weeks without seeing them.

That's kinda how it was for us, a review. Because we have the type already, it is like a recurrent class. It saves the company time and money.

I know their are some great flash cards out their to help. I would tell your buddy not to stress. He will pass and they are not out to fail you.

 

[freightdogfred]

hopefully the pilots will realize we need to stick together cause it's only going to get worse once Gary realizes he screwed the pooch overpaying for his misadventure. Then he'll come asking us to pay for that mistake, above and beyond what we already have, to wit, we must stand firm and say FUGK.

Overpaying for his misadventure?

750 mil in cash, the rest in stock certificates? Airtran had 500 mil in the bank, so , in reality he paid about 250 mil. For that, he got all the gates, slots, aircraft, parts etc in LGA, DCA, ATL, MKE. If he's half the business man all the experts here at FI claim he is, I'm sure he chiseled Boeing outta something by turning that money-losing 717 over to big D.

The previous CEO at FL (Joe Leonard) hailed the 717 as single greatest reason for pulling Airtran out of bankruptcy. GK says it a money loser. Go figger

 

[dicko]

I'm having trouble getting worked up over the length of SWA training (believe it or not) I'd rather have more than less. It's a new airline and I haven't flown round dials since an old Lear 23 and the Jetpig.

Lear brought up a good point about the 717 Homies; Giving them a quick and dirty 'review' on the 737-300, 500, 700 and 800 would be doing them a huge disservice. I'd want the full course if I were in the same position.

 

[PCL_128]

That's exactly my point, SWA has to come up with some type of transitional training that the FAA will sign off on. What exactly would you prefer the 2 weeks to be filled up with, multiple testing with your job on the line?

Jeesh!

No, they really don't need to come up with a full training program. Do you think the Northwest pilots all came to "Fort Widget" to go through Delta training? Of course not. The company issued a stack of bulletins, everyone got a fancy sub commander uniform, and on a set date, everyone was a Delta pilot. Pretty simple, really.

 

[redflyer65]

Freight,

The 717 fit perfectly helping pull AAI out of a hole back in the day, it doesn't fit well in the SW model, that's all. Nothing nefarious, just a business decision that keeps an all 737 fleet. Same training for everyone. Everyone uses the same sim, parts, etc, etc. It will be a good long term decision for our company that hopefully we can all profit from later.

Lear,

Even the 717 guys coming over shouldn't be too worried about it. Maybe a little extra study to understand the systems, but they don't make you rebuild the plane. They might ask some overhead panel questions but not much more than that with regard to systems. Cooperate, graduate was always the name of the game.

 

[dicko]

No, they really don't need to come up with a full training program. Do you think the Northwest pilots all came to "Fort Widget" to go through Delta training? Of course not. The company issued a stack of bulletins, everyone got a fancy sub commander uniform, and on a set date, everyone was a Delta pilot. Pretty simple, really.

They also complained about the shallow training methods. Training by bulletin is farcking curse.

 

[PCL_128]

They also complained about the shallow training methods. Training by bulletin is farcking curse.

Yes, that is the other extreme, I agree. What would be more reasonable would be a one-week course. This 64 days of training (including OE) is nuts for pilots who are already flying the same damned airplane.

 

[scoreboardII]

this is new territorry, SWA has never had to train, only review, everyone had a type. Intresting to see what they really come up with for folks who have no type.

 

[Dan Roman]

Like -I- have said before, I'm not accusing you of being anti-SWA. I'm accusing you of being anti-Southwest pilots. Which is ironic, because it was SWA, not SWAPA, who didn't "treat the Airtran merger" as you thought would have been proper. But for some reason, you continually bash SWAPA and its pilots as if they contrived to do all of this. Trust me, the overwhelming majority wanted no part of this to begin with. However, it's a reality now, and ALL sides are trying to deal as best as possible.

Can Southwest pilots (and SWAPA folks) say stupid or insensitive things? Of course. On the other hand, so can Airtran/ALPA folks. So can United/Continental guys, so can Alaska guys, and certainly so can Hawaiian guys. Why is it you never take anyone ELSE to task for stupid/insensitive remarks besides Southwest pilots? Why is that, Dan?

In this case, Texman made a positive comment about Airtran guys and used the term "newhire training," without it occurring to him that it might offend anyone. Then a few Airtran guys pointed out that they're not newhires. And then of course, YOU were all over it like stink on you-know-what, as typical "Southwest pilot arrogance/mentality." Jesus, Dan, give it a rest. I was just in Dallas for training, and the Airtran guys I talked to called it "newhire training" themselves. Maybe you should give them a hard time too. No offense was meant. Relax, man! Stand down from Defcon 1!

I'm not sure if it's just your idea of fun to stir up trouble among other airlines' pilots (I dunno--does Hawaiian pay you extra for that?), or if maybe a Southwest pilot dorked your girl or something. Regardless, it's pretty clear that you only jump on Southwest pilots' words and no one elses. Talk to a professional, Dan. Please. For all our sakes.

Bubba

Well I'm guessing I have gotten you pretty worked up judging by the amount of posts you have directed at me. As is human nature your seeing this through only your SWA perspective, which is fine. But thinking I " should seek professional help"because someone has a different perspective ( on a web board for pilots from different airlines no less!) probably says more about you than me. Really, chill, this is just a web board, no single persons opinion really matters that much.
If any of us met in person we would get along fine. I would even guess you could have a beer with Gen Lee and enjoy yourself.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW, Bubba, I saw your fine print. What did ever happen to to old Fubi? I was a lot less civil with him than anything I've ever directed towards SWAPA when he started in on Hawaiian.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

this is new territorry, SWA has never had to train, only review, everyone had a type. Intresting to see what they really come up with for folks who have no type.

Actually that is not correct. The Morris guys had to do the full new hire training at SWA. (Yes, even their Captains with 1000's of hours of 737 experience ) Many of the F/O's didn't have a type either.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

BTW, Bubba, I saw your fine print. What did ever happen to to old Fubi? I was a lot less civil with him than anything I've ever directed towards SWAPA when he started in on Hawaiian.

I would like to know the same thing.

Last time he said anything to me was when I was going to get sued by him for calling him a bad pilot.

Still have my legal dream team anxiously awaiting the summons!