SWAPA calls all former AirTran pilots

[Bob Dylan]

Come on Lear, pull your head out of your butt.

You're being played. Who benefits if this deal causes turmoil within the company?

 

[ivauir]

autonomy - immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence

If MEC members are in the room providing "thoughts and input" your MC is not autonomous.

 

[Cometman]

pull your head out of your butt.

You're being played. Who benefits if this deal causes turmoil within the company?[/QUOTE]

Becareful Bob, you will be banned. When somebody has their head that far up it is impossible to pull it out.

 

[Lear70]

Becareful Bob, you will be banned. When somebody has their head that far up it is impossible to pull it out.

After your "colorful" and completely inaccurate PM rants the last couple weeks, I see you still haven't found any rational reason to sling mud at me, yet continue to do so. Well done.

autonomy - immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence

If MEC members are in the room providing "thoughts and input" your MC is not autonomous.

Yes, the MC is autonomous. Just because someone is present to give their opinion doesn't mean that person has any "authority". Although LH is a de-facto member of EVERY committee by ALPA bylaws, he holds no special place of power on any such committee.

I've flown with 2 of our MC members for over a decade, and have known one of your own MC members just as long (we were all at a prior company together). I know them to be level-headed folks who will do the best they can to come to a reasonable agreement.

Beyond that, I'm just not commenting, no matter how many digs people make.

 

[Flying the Line]

I find it interesting that no one has brought up the fact that Skywest bought Express Jet and merged them into ASA, which did not force the Skywest pilots into SLI with a company they bought. The similarities are there with Guadalupe.

 

[redflyer65]

Because nobody wants to believe that's a possiblity. But the reality is it could happen if Gary wants to pull that ripcord.

I get the impression that the ALPA guys are grasping at straws by wanting to meet with SW management. I don't blame them for asking, but they are doing all they can to get into the transition agreement and it ain't gonna happen.

 

[humveedriver]

I find it interesting that no one has brought up the fact that Skywest bought Express Jet and merged them into ASA, which did not force the Skywest pilots into SLI with a company they bought. The similarities are there with Guadalupe.

I sorta brought it up in another thread, about keeping us seperate. The SWA guys said that they are protected by their contract. They said that if AirTran is operated seperate, SWA has to basically add 4 aircraft to SWA for everyone 1 aircraft added to AT. That covers growth. But it doesn't stop them from doing this;

Keeping Airtran seperate (working under the AT labor contracts) and restructuring our flying. In other words, sending the 717 to DAL and OAK to do shorthaul flying. HOLY COW! DAL is senior! SWA wouldn't displace their top 10% of the seniority list. Would they? Keeping the same 52 AirTran 737's and making them the international fleet. They are configured differently in the cabin and flight deck.. we are cerftified to do Cat III using autoland and not the HUD. These are the reasons I don't just freak out say "SWA just bought.. I won the lottery". The real offer isn't on the table yet. I don't know what SWA plans are. In addition to that, I think the DOJ looks at a larger airlines purchasing smaller airlines with the intent of somehow elimanating that competition. So my enthusiam for the deal will depend alot on what the BOD see's, the DOJ see's, and ultimately how the SWA management really intends on using the new toy they are buying.

 

[frqntflyr]

Just a quick thought...An arbitrator is not capable of making UNIQUE judgments such as pay protection, special bases, etc...

 

[S3sundowner]

Humvee, I think that the intent is to fully integrate the two operations. However, swa management is also very aware of the pitfalls of this business, and hence, will protect what they now have. If airtran, as a company, comes over nicely and happily, it should be a good ride.

 

[roughneck]

An arbitrator is not capable of making UNIQUE judgments such as pay protection, special bases, etc...

That is true but they will take the acquiring parties (SWA) requests and will build the award accordingly. Fair and equitable has already been taken care of with the huge contract windfall that every AirTran pilot will receive and if all AirTran pilots are in Atlanta for the rest of their careers then they retain exactly what they brought to the table.

 

[Sy-bill]

This has become so interesting. How this has evolved into so much bad information being thrown around by people who "say" they are in the know.

Airtran pilots arguing what their rights are vs Southwest pilots trying to hang on to what they have while wanting a reasonable gain because of the Airtran pilots natural gains from the Swapa contract.

As much inaccurate information that has been shared there are only the facts that an arbitrator will be interested.

1) This is an aquisition
2) The Airtran pilots will naturally experience a large gain in Pay, QOL and benefits.
3) The SWA pilots will experience a zero natural gain.
4) Potential growth means NOTHING to an arbitrator.
5) An arbitrator will NOT give a 6 year Airtran Captain a seat that a 9 year FO does not have.
6) There will NOT be a staple of the entire Airtran list on the bottom of the SWA list.
7) Career expectations and, fair and equitable will be the only areas considered by an arbitrator.

SWAPA is using who is considered by far the best law firm for these types of integration situations. Airtran has the third. Guess who has number two on retainer?
The difference between the best and second best is huge. The difference between the second and third even more.

I know that some do not like what I am saying but it is the truth. Airtran pilots are better off negotiating in good faith and coming to an agreement with SWAPA instead of going to arbitration. Swapa appears to have a very competent, experienced team taking care of their interests. With the attorneys they have any betting man puts their money that the SWA pilots will also be experiencing gains as they reasonably should.

Do not under estimate the power of family with SWA. If there seems to be a real concern for the health of their culture, no matter who has quoted what, SWA is well positioned with a number of legal options to ascertain their culture stays in place.

It is automatic that the Airtran pilots have career gains. Not at all for the SWA pilots. Fair and equitable is where if there is a gain or loss from one group, the other must experience the same.

As long as cooler heads prevail (obviously not here on FI) both sides should be moderately satisfied with the final result of the integration by SWAPA and ALPA. If this goes to arbitration, largely it will shift more favorably for the SWA pilots.

Best of luck to all of you.

 

[S3sundowner]

Sybill, one of the best posts on the subject. The trannies would be well advised to make a deal with swapa.

 

[shagadelic]

Some interesting comments by our negotiating chair if you haven't read them yet.

http://www.swapaluv.com/

 

[DougCorp-9]

Sounds like someone doesn't want to go to arbitration.

 

[dicko]

Some interesting comments by our negotiating chair if you haven't read them yet.

http://www.swapaluv.com/

It seems Baghdad Bob is alive and well. His new Gig is managing the SWAPA Propaganda Machine.

Here's a live link to the SWAPA interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

I work for SWA, and would rather settle this sooner rather than later, but definitely do not fear arbitration!

 

[redflyer65]

No fear of arbitration what so ever. The chips in front of the arbitor are stacked in Southwest favor.

 

[redflyer65]

It seems Baghdad Bob is alive and well. His new Gig is managing the SWAPA Propaganda Machine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI

Hey Dicko,

The last two questions say it all.

 

[S3sundowner]

Dicko, it's not propaganda. My buddy at swa got the same interview sent via swapa email yesterday. GK isn't just buying you guys with his eyes closed hoping the swa employees "get over whatever happens in time". He will protect his company and hope that you guys appreciate this opportunity. Don't look the gifthorse in the mouth for too long. Believe me, swapa would welcome arbitration. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[PCL_128]

Lear,

How can they be autonomous with ALPA leadership at the meetings?

autonomy - immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence

If MEC members are in the room providing "thoughts and input" your MC is not autonomous.

There are a few misunderstandings here, I think. First, the MC is not really autonomous. The MC still reports to the MEC, and they still work for the MEC. The MEC just doesn't get involved in developing strategy or working on the details of SLI. The MEC still has the power of oversight. Nothing in policy says anything different. However, the ATN MEC has made the decision to not get involved in the details of SLI, including strategy, bargaining positions, or arbitration, should it come to that.

As far as MEC members being "at the meetings," there haven't even been any SLI meetings. All meetings so far have just dealt with the Process Agreement and transition discussions. That's not SLI. Once the SLI negotiations start, you won't see a member of the governing body anywhere. It will be all MC, all the time. That's their job, not the MEC's. But we aren't there yet.

 

[BlueBlood]

PCL,

As an MEC officer, why do you come to this board? If I were an AirTran - ALPA member, I would not like the idea of my union leadership going to an "anonymous" message board and commenting....at all. There is more important things, I could imagine, for my leadership to be involved.

 

[Lear70]

There are a few misunderstandings here, I think. First, the MC is not really autonomous. The MC still reports to the MEC, and they still work for the MEC. The MEC just doesn't get involved in developing strategy or working on the details of SLI. The MEC still has the power of oversight. Nothing in policy says anything different.

Didn't infer that they didn't. Of course the MEC has the ability to change their stance on how the MC is currently organized and managed but, IMHO, to do so would be the equivalent of political suicide in our current internal environment.

However, the ATN MEC has made the decision to not get involved in the details of SLI, including strategy, bargaining positions, or arbitration, should it come to that.

That's what I meant by "autonomous". With the MEC not involved in any of that, the MC is pretty much free to go whatever direction they decide. Still trying to figure out from the policy manual if the MEC will get "veto" authority over any agreement that may be reached by the MC before it goes out for MemRat...

 

[USMC319]

Airtran guys; if you want relative seniority despite any facts that may be laid out against that proposition, just make sure you get arbitrator Dana Eischen. He just disregarded all facts, including his own rationale, in the whole F9-YX-L4-RAH debacle and gave all the commuter pilots a giant windfall. Southwest guys; do just the opposite if you want to keep what you've earned. And whatever you do, make sure you go with a 3 arbitrator panel, so that your fate is not tied to one senile and insane old man.

 

[Flying the Line]

Airtran guys; if you want relative seniority despite any facts that may be laid out against that proposition, just make sure you get arbitrator Dana Eischen. He just disregarded all facts, including his own rationale, in the whole F9-YX-L4-RAH debacle and gave all the commuter pilots a giant windfall. Southwest guys; do just the opposite if you want to keep what you've earned. And whatever you do, make sure you go with a 3 arbitrator panel, so that your fate is not tied to one senile and insane old man.

3 Arbitratror panel already installed.

 

[kwick]

in all honesty, when somebody takes a ridiculous position in barganing, we sometimes make a ridiculous proposal in the other direction. To kinda balance out expectations.

In the end, there will be compromise.

I think DOH would be workable, if ATL has a long fence. Of the 400 ,or so, Airtran guys who would face being bumped to F/O, maybe split the difference and down-grade
200, and press on.

Of course, I thought DOH would have worked in the USAir case if there were
fences to protect everyones seat and domicile.

 

[ASADFW7]

kwick I respect your right to try to come up with a solution from your side of the things. But here is how I see it. There is a big circular room, with dozens of windows viewing all the pieces of the SWA and Aitran parts. Everything, crews, airplanes, gates, tugs, maintenance, tickets, markets, human resources, etc. All these pieces are in the room and all the parties are looking in through their window, and no one can start fitting these pieces together yet. We are both just looking through the window and not able to do anything about the pieces that we see inside.

I spoke with a SWA instructor and maintenance team guy on the jump seat the other day headed to SEA. First, two airplanes that were going to Airtran are being delivered to SWA and have to be reconfigured, galley, avionics, etc... Secondly the instructor said there were teams of 150 and 200 working on all the little details, trying to figure this thing out. So the game of trying to split the differences is really irrelevant. Cheers

 

[flynvixen]

Airtran guys; if you want relative seniority despite any facts that may be laid out against that proposition, just make sure you get arbitrator Dana Eischen. He just disregarded all facts, including his own rationale, in the whole F9-YX-L4-RAH debacle and gave all the commuter pilots a giant windfall. Southwest guys; do just the opposite if you want to keep what you've earned. And whatever you do, make sure you go with a 3 arbitrator panel, so that your fate is not tied to one senile and insane old man.[/QUOTE

Citrus vato's.......if you want relative seniority.......you are going to be inside the RJ corral for a long time. If you guys are happy making RJ wages while you wait for the ALPA job killing machine to burn the SWAPA house down like they have burned the rest of the industry down I can tell you it will be a long wait.

Guadalupe holdings can keep you there forever or off the whole bunch of you guys along with the RJ's when they get tired of you guys crying about not being able to steal our left seats.

Take the money take all the rest of the great deals you guys have already got from this deal and get happy.

We can do this the easy way and all get along and prosper or we can do it the hard way and we all end up like the America West US Air tools. ALPA did a great job there didn't they, they fought, fought and kept on fighting until the whole deal was not worth doing. That is coming in this situation if we are not careful. The ALPA job killing machine never misses an opportunity to miss and opportunity.

I hope SWA can pull this off otherwise we will be infected with a virus that will make working here just as miserable as the other airlines.

We must fight this one like we have never fought before the ALPA job killing machine is coming and must be stopped.

Cheers vato's

 

[Lear70]

What's with the "Vato" thing?

It goes without saying that there's not a single one of us who believes you are Latin in any way. Vatos (the plural of vato) doesn't have an apostrophe, mate, and the placement of the rest of your syntax is too precise in your post history to believe that's an accidental typo.

Just wondering...

 

[S3sundowner]

Kwick, you make it sound like DOH with long fences would be "acceptable" to the aai pilots. You guys wouldn't be able to hold in your laughter. A AA or AAA baseball player just got drafted to the big leagues, and he's walking in there saying "yeah, I think I'll take Jeter's contract and I kinda like that short stop position". Get real.

 

[texman]

What's with the "Vato" thing?

It goes without saying that there's not a single one of us who believes you are Latin in any way. Vatos (the plural of vato) doesn't have an apostrophe, mate, and the placement of the rest of your syntax is too precise in your post history to believe that's an accidental typo.

Just wondering...

He is one of are mafia members down in LRD.LOL. By the way still no response on my PM.