SWAPA/ATN: Why no JCBA?

[RedDogC130]

AirTran revenues and operating income, excluding special items, for the twelve months ending June 30, 2010, were $2.5 billion and $128 million, respectively. Southwest Airlines revenues and operating income, excluding special items, for the twelve months ending June 30, 2010, were $11.2 billion and $843 million, respectively

Bob Fornaro, AirTran Airways' Chairman, President and CEO said, "This agreement is great news for our Crew Members, our shareholders, our customers and the communities we serve. Joining Southwest Airlines will give us opportunities to grow, both professionally as individuals and as a group, in ways that simply would not be possible without this agreement. This agreement with Southwest is a testament to the success and hard work of the more than 8,000 AirTran Crew Members who have built this airline. I am tremendously proud of the things we have accomplished together and look forward to continuing that great work during this next exciting chapter of our history."

Wow..did not know you had so many crew members....this could get ugly

 

[funnyman12]

Gary Kelly said the same things about Airtran on 9/27. Nice try.

 

[roughneck]

If everything's so great, why are you so angry? :laugh:

I just know how hard we have all worked to build what we have at SWA. We are willing and able to extend that to your pilot group but A little respect for the gift you are being given is expected. I'm not angry but I do expect you not to look a gift horse in the mouth. Welcome aboard.

 

[ATLplt]

Wow..did not know you had so many crew members....this could get ugly

Yet another way for our reptillian overlords to demoralize the REAL crew members. Call the rampies and gate agents crew members, and they're the same as the diva pilots.

It's not a normal day at work unless you're bossed around by the gate agent, lead FA, and tug driver. You know...your fellow crew members.

 

[PapaWoody]

RedDog et al-

Out TA vote closes today at 10 a.m. EST. The rates for FO's will become effective Dec 1, so any comparisons made using wages from our 2001 Contract are just a waste of time. You might as well be describing your plan to open a VHS video rental store.

And I think Lear put that post of his from 2 years ago in perspective- the man was on the street when he wrote it.

Sorry, Ty, but for the sake of these arguments (i.e. SWA vs. AAI vis a vis the integration), your current rates, not your TA rates, are the ones in play. Because those are the rates that the arbitrator will be using to make his/her comparisons. Why, you ask? Because SWAPA can (and will) make a very valid case that a) those came after the CND and b) you got those rates as a direct result of the SWA acquisition. As part of those arguments, I'm sure they will include that GK himself probably had to sign off on the deal, since I doubt if AAI could make substantive changes to their costs without it. So it will be the snapshot taken on Sep 27th that will constitute the comparison of contracts.

Also, just to be clear, didn't you start negotiating in '05? So your current rates would be '05 rates, not '01 rates. But it was a nice attempt to bolster your argument by increasing the distance between then and now. Oh, and for the record, even though we'll be using the old rates for comparison, even your new rates are 30-50% less than ours.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Max Powers]

Sorry, Ty, but for the sake of these arguments (i.e. SWA vs. AAI vis a vis the integration), your current rates, not your TA rates, are the ones in play. Because those are the rates that the arbitrator will be using to make his/her comparisons. Why, you ask? Because SWAPA can (and will) make a very valid case that a) those came after the CND and b) you got those rates as a direct result of the SWA acquisition. As part of those arguments, I'm sure they will include that GK himself probably had to sign off on the deal, since I doubt if AAI could make substantive changes to their costs without it. So it will be the snapshot taken on Sep 27th that will constitute the comparison of contracts.

Also, just to be clear, didn't you start negotiating in '05? So your current rates would be '05 rates, not '01 rates. But it was a nice attempt to bolster your argument by increasing the distance between then and now. Oh, and for the record, even though we'll be using the old rates for comparison, even your new rates are 30-50% less than ours.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Wrong on all accounts except that SWAPA will try to say that in any legal argument. Facts...SWA and AAI can not do or even discuss any business prior to DOJ approval; so that blows a hole in much of what you are saying. Second those rates are fair and if we go our separate ways we will still be able to grow and be profitable. And the big zinger - SLI arbitrators don't care about pay rates its all about expected career progression and relative seniority.

 

[Max Powers]

Perfect example. So at 3rd year straight pay you would gross about 4900 per month at 80 credits per mont at current AT rates per APC. Now you come to SWA and get the same 80 credits...which would take giving away at least a 3 day trip to get that low...and with our TFP you would gross 7392 per month. So you telling me you think AT guys will come here and get weekends and holidays off plus the almost 30000 raise min... this guys case... And not have to give anything up...such as seniority....hell I am going into my 5th year and I am working weekends...and this year flying thanksgiving...Xmas...and damn new years...has not always been the case but I do not se a 3 year AT guy getting that when they come here....better wake up and see the reality of your changing world....if my QOL would have to change for the worse with lower seniority...which might happen for an AT person...they better give me huge pay raise to compensate.....wait that will just happen.

Thats is where you are wrong your QOL will not change......You are presently at 24 percent relative seniority after the SLI you will still be at 24 percent. Your kind is just jealous we are getting a nice little raise. Which just got a lot smaller with our new TA.

 

[luv2fly]

Wrong on all accounts except that SWAPA will try to say that in any legal argument. Facts...SWA and AAI can not do or even discuss any business prior to DOJ approval; so that blows a hole in much of what you are saying. Second those rates are fair and if we go our separate ways we will still be able to grow and be profitable. And the big zinger - SLI arbitrators don't care about pay rates its all about expected career progression and relative seniority.

Keep telling yourself what ever you need to make you feel better.

 

[Cruncher]

For those saying we (SWA guys) are not giving something up in this transaction:

We all agree the last few years have been on Blitzkrieg our industry. Age 60, the economy, the oil fiasco, .... However, times are changing. US airlines are expected to earn 4 billion in profits in 2010. Early next year, SWA will have the highest number of flights in our history. The Wright Amendment goes away in 2014. Our expansion cities are doing extremely well! Our training department is finished with RNP. Oil has stabilized by US legislature (nonetheless). We are fast becoming an older pilot group, currently over 300 guys over the age of 60. Retirements start up in early Dec '13*, and when they do start, we are going to retire over 1500 guys in the first 10 years! We have an arsenal of cash & over 200 "known" aircraft orders at Boeing. (Herb's job these last couple years has been on our "future aircraft", think the 787 is NOT in our future, check the Boeing website for the "unknown" domestic carrier's orders?). SWA's future looks extremely bright. The -800s are going to make SWA even more profitable in the near future. HI (though argued) is next, and all the connectivity getting back 'n forth. Growth is right around the corner with the subsequent upgrade and rapid movement up the seniority ladder.

Now enter Sept 27, 2010 and say your a senior SWA FO.

Now come on here and read guys claiming "we are not going to loose one Captain seat and relative seniority!"

Ahh, if that happens what do we "give up?" Well AAI is a young group, a very young group compared to SWA (so no age-based attrition). We all know as an airline gets larger, it's growth naturally slows. Enter 1700 AAI guys onto our list and we are in the 8000 pilot range (which slows our "ORGANIC" pilot list growth). Utilize the AAI fleet at SWA utilization rates and further delay (more ASM growth without pilots).

IOW, our FOs stand to possibly give up years of left seat time to AAI FOs / junior AAI captains.

So though you all stand to reap immense increases in your career expectations and a huge increase in your work contract / QOL, we are faced with nothing more than further stagnation and a LOSS in career expectation / earnings (for the lost time in the left seat). So this is what we "possible" stand to loose.

-k

* = not counting our "Space Cowboys."

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, and for the record, even though we'll be using the old rates for comparison, even your new rates are 30-50% less than ours.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

You won't be using them for anything, that's for sure. You've got about as much say in this thing as that creepy Burger King character in their late night commercials. :laugh:

Negotiations are between the MC's. Both unions have asked their pilots to refrain from discussing SLI issues. I simply pointed out that the rates you are using are from our 2001 Contract.

PW, the SLI isn't going to take place for nine more months. At the rate you're going, you'll have a heart attack by then. Relax, Amigo.

 

[Ty Webb]

Utilize the AAI fleet at SWA utilization rates and further delay (more ASM growth without pilots).

Cruncher, AAI's aircraft utilization rate is actually higher than SWA by almost a full hour per day. Look it up, I'm not going to waste time with someone who hasn't done his homework.

 

[roughneck]

I think he was talking about your 12.31 pilots per A/C compared to our 10.86 pilots per A/C. Our management has ran a tighter ship than AirTran does and as a result, you are overstaffed by our standards.

After we aquire you we will take your inefficient operation and roll it into ours. We will not need to hire as many pilots as we start taking delivery of growth airplanes next year. This is harmful to SWA F/O's.

We are adding back all of the shoulder flights in the March schedule. Our A/C utilization will be over 13+ hours per day by Spring. AT will not be flying their airplanes that much.

 

[shootr]

SWA has a great track record, but AMR, UAL, DAL and NWA have all been around twice as long, and I'm sure sure at some point in their histories, their pilots could puff their chests up with pride and make the same statement you just did.

Hypothetical...would you expect relative at AMR, UAL, or DAL if one of them purchased you?

 

[carl p]

The ironic thing is our NC firmly believes we lost leverage when the SWA deal was announced because the NMB basically told us we were not getting released due to the "change" in circumstances. As a result we were forced to settle for a T.A. we would have never agreed to before 9/27. Management knew we lost the ability to get released and negotiated accordingly. In the short term, the deal actually hurt the AT pilots ability to achieve AK rates or better. We all know long term this T.A. won't matter if the deal goes through.

 

[StaySeated]

Wrong on all accounts except that SWAPA will try to say that in any legal argument. Facts...SWA and AAI can not do or even discuss any business prior to DOJ approval; so that blows a hole in much of what you are saying. Second those rates are fair and if we go our separate ways we will still be able to grow and be profitable. And the big zinger - SLI arbitrators don't care about pay rates its all about expected career progression and relative seniority.

Max, I am just curious. Where are you getting that piece about "swa and aai can not do or even discuss any business prior to doj approval"?

I hope that the Airtran MEC isn't saying that, because it is completely incorrect.

Recent examples.

UAL/CAL DOJ Approval 8/30/2010

UAL/CAL ALPA began negotiations in late May/early June 2010

NWA/DAL DOJ Approval 10/29/2008

NWA/DAL ALPA began negotiations in late April/Early May 2008.

There is nothing preventing negotiations prior to DOJ approval, in fact it would be insane to do anything of the sort.

ALPA merger policy (Amendment 3) also contains a concise time-line, initiated after the merger announcement.