SWA TA fails

[turbodriver]

At least you SWA guys have a pair big enough to say no to reduced scope......

 

[StopNTSing]

At least you SWA guys have a pair big enough to say no to reduced scope......

Thanks, but that remains to be seen. The next offer may be just the original TA warmed-over with some small enhancements to sway 100 or so pilots to a 'yes.'

 

[shearedshaft]

The "junior" pay example was for the most junior guy on the property. Check the seniority list. Why would picking as "junior" someone who was less junior be a better answer than picking the most junior guy?

As posted on another thread, this TA failure cost me $1,200 per month, and it cost every SWA fo on this board a similar, or lesser amount, but even at the most junior levels, you guys just gave up $600/month or so.

Senior FOs got a 10% raise, junior FOs got a 6% raise (make that 11% and 7% with the 401(k) bump) and you guys gave it up. Gone like a freight train. Gone like yesterday.

For a lot of you, that pay raise would have equaled a smaller mortgage payment. Gone like yesterday.

Think to yourselves..."I'm writing a check for $800 each month. Every month, I'm writing a check back to the company for $800".

Gone like a soldier in the civil war.

 

[Mach 80]

Very good. Montgomery/Gentry

 

[murano]

When we come back with 5% raises I want YOU to write ME a check for $1200 / month for voting NO on this turd.

 

[puddlejumper101]

The "junior" pay example was for the most junior guy on the property. Check the seniority list. Why would picking as "junior" someone who was less junior be a better answer than picking the most junior guy?

As posted on another thread, this TA failure cost me $1,200 per month, and it cost every SWA fo on this board a similar, or lesser amount, but even at the most junior levels, you guys just gave up $600/month or so.

Senior FOs got a 10% raise, junior FOs got a 6% raise (make that 11% and 7% with the 401(k) bump) and you guys gave it up. Gone like a freight train. Gone like yesterday.

For a lot of you, that pay raise would have equaled a smaller mortgage payment. Gone like yesterday.

Think to yourselves..."I'm writing a check for $800 each month. Every month, I'm writing a check back to the company for $800".

Gone like a soldier in the civil war.

wait a minute...as much as the numbers make sense, the scheduling changes and lack of flexibility for that junior F/O means he broke even. If you ask me I would gladly make those extra $600 with ELLIT flexibility and when I am willing to give the company an extra day. Now the company will just give me the $600 and force me to fly my line for the most part. If I need an extra day off, or move my trips because my kid has a doc app, then I am stuck and screwed. Most of us would rather have the QOL instead of the cash. We can always make the cash when we are ready. That's the beauty of what we have, it is called flexibility.

So they want me to give up my flexibility and they will pay me a set number up front for it. The question becomes how valuable is your time off? Can you put a number to it? Plus with VJA in 2 days I can double or triple those same $600 and it was when I could. Things that make you go hmm.. There is more to this than numbers and straight pay. Oh yeah, by the way the lance cap. gets $1200 for giving up his seat...That means he took a $25000 pay cut instead of a $30000 pay cut.

 

[GuppyWN]

The "junior" pay example was for the most junior guy on the property. Check the seniority list. Why would picking as "junior" someone who was less junior be a better answer than picking the most junior guy?

As posted on another thread, this TA failure cost me $1,200 per month, and it cost every SWA fo on this board a similar, or lesser amount, but even at the most junior levels, you guys just gave up $600/month or so.

Senior FOs got a 10% raise, junior FOs got a 6% raise (make that 11% and 7% with the 401(k) bump) and you guys gave it up. Gone like a freight train. Gone like yesterday.

For a lot of you, that pay raise would have equaled a smaller mortgage payment. Gone like yesterday.

Think to yourselves..."I'm writing a check for $800 each month. Every month, I'm writing a check back to the company for $800".

Gone like a soldier in the civil war.

SL32 requires the company to grow by 5% if they want to codeshare. There are no exceptions, no outs. The only out is to simply not abide.

You can have your 7% raise (not really after the reductions), I want job security.

Gup

 

[shearedshaft]

The ELITT argument is comical. Do you know what destroys ELITT? Lances and first year guys pounding on it like a redheaded step child, using it to lower their line totals. Have you noticed that net zero is always (always!) zero on the FO side, even with overmanning?

If you wanted flexibility, then restricting lances and first year guys from pounding on it would get your net zero up to a big positive number, like on the captain's side. Then you'd be able to really have a flexible schedule. Think what you could do with a net zero of 65, like over on the PHX CA side last month. That, my friend is flexibility.

I bet you also have zero idea how to even calculate DTC, but if you think that limiting the DTC net zero (downside) of ELITT is smarter than getting a net zero of 65 (upside) like the captains, than I think you should sit down with a paper and pencil and ask yourself, "Would I like to be able to open ELITT and see a net zero of 65 to move my schedule around, or would I like to open ELITT and see a DTC that is 1% higher on two weekends per month with net zeros still zero?" (Hint: you want a high net zero, but I bet you've never actually seen one so you don't know what you're missing)

Seriously? You don't see where the ELITT problems come from? Hint, it's not DTC, it's guys out of category hitting "trade" as soon as net zero goes to one. Who are those guys? Lances and first years trying to get rid of their lines. Those guys, my friend, are the ones who "limit" you, not DTC.

If you had a net zero of 65, then by definition, DTC wouldn't matter and affect your flexibility. You would have so much flexibility you could drop whole four day trips into the mix if you needed to. But now, we're at net zero for every FO ELITT across the system and we're at huge net zeros for every captain ELITT. How's that working out for you in terms of flexibility?

Oh and codeshare? Looks like the no vote just opened us up to unlimited domestic code share. Lets cross our fingers and hope SWA doesn't announce Republic going to Lubbock for us. We sure showed them with a no vote! Hey SWA, we want to make sure you can domestic code share with no restriction, so vote no!

 

[Capn Butthead]

Ummmmmm.........what?????

Im a 5 year f/o and im always on elitt looking for something better! I like having the option of moving my trips around and enjoying my days off! it take 3 minutes to log in check elitt, then logoff....God that was a waste of time! Not trying to offend you but I think you are out of touch on what is really going on with what most F/O's are doing. Scope is a big big deal and SL32 does address that better than the TA. Plus as I put on your other post....Sure we could add RJ's....But they dont make sense in a low cost enviroment. They cant compete with the Seat mile cost of a 737 or an A320. Period. With fuel prices rising they are even more so not cost effective.

 

[scoreboardII]

shershaft, are you really this clueless?

Really? When your sitting across the table from the manager at the car dealer, and you push that offer he just made back across the table and say, "no thanks, I still need the floor matt's", why do you think you then lose everything you have just been talking about for 2 hours? No you don't. You keep talking from that point.

SWA won't play hardball, they want this done more than us.

 

[shearedshaft]

Ummmmmm.........what?????

If you don't understand the mechanics of ELITT, then it's time for you to dig in a little. It sounds like you don't understand DTC, or the net zero phenomenon.

If you were a captain, and checked the ELITT board, you would find a very large net zero number. That means that you could give as many duty periods back to the company as you needed to (you probably have 12 duty periods on your board at the beginning of the month. If net zero is 65, you have ultimate flexibility). Then you could take duty periods back from the company or from TTGA, or from open time as you worked your schedule.

In reality though, the lances and first year guys know how to work this, so they start giving away their line to the company via ELITT as soon as it opens.

Net zero for FOs goes to zero immediately and stays there. Every time it pops it head up and hits one, a lance pounces and gets rid of another duty period. So now you, as five-year guy, can only trade for more, or the same number of duty periods. Or move a weekend trip to a weekday trip.

Im a 5 year f/o and im always on elitt looking for something better! I like having the option of moving my trips around and enjoying my days off! it take 3 minutes to log in check elitt, then logoff

That's my point. You check it and 95% of the time, there is nothing there to help, you're stuck with 19.5 weekend trips and net zero of zero. The captains, who don't have lances and first year guys pounding on ELITT have a much, much better experience with flexibility.

Scope is a big big deal and SL32 does address that better than the TA. [\quote]

Not.

SL32 just says the company has to meet with the union and tell the union why they are not complying if they don't comply. How is that better than "no domestic codeshare"? There is no remedy in SL32. None. It doesn't say, "All codeshare will stop if growth stops." Go read it. It says the company will comply, but if the company doesn't, they'll sit down with the union and explain to the union why they didn't feel like complying.

SL32 isn't worth the paper it was written on. If the company violates it, the only penalty is them talking to the union. They don't even have to do that if there are debilitating circumstances, and if you think the worst recession in 50 years isn't debilitating, I have an arbitrator job for you.

 

[Beechball]

Shearedshaft,
When's the last time you've been on the f/o ELITT when it first opens?? It NEVER opens with anything except a NETZERO of ZERO!! The most I've ever seen it is maybe a Netzero of 5...but that's never been at the noon hour on opening day. So your argument is pretty weak. Don't go blaming Lances and First Year guys/gals for killing the Netzero value.....I've been on for..let's see...about 60+ ELITT openings and never saw it that flexible except for weekends. The Captain side for some reason has always been different.

 

[shearedshaft]

The captain side doesn't start at a positive net zero either, guys through their scheduling machinations and the captain net zero usually turns positive early and stays at a pretty positive (65 to 100 is out of hand that's recent) amount.

FO net zero starts at zero and every time it goes to one, a lance or a first year guy pounds on it and drops a duty period. I don't understand why you don't believe me, go check across the board. Every base has a very positive net zero for captains and zero for FOs. Why? FOs have lances and first year guys. Captains don't.

DTC changes would be meaningless with a good net zero. So restrict the lances from dropping too many duty periods, restrict the first year guys from dropping their whole line and picking up everything at second year and you suddenly have a good, workable ELITT.

Or, you could vote no and keep a nearly useless ELITT for FOs. And give up your raises. Oh wait, you already did.

 

[StopNTSing]

The captain side doesn't start at a positive net zero either, guys through their scheduling machinations and the captain net zero usually turns positive early and stays at a pretty positive (65 to 100 is out of hand that's recent) amount.

FO net zero starts at zero and every time it goes to one, a lance or a first year guy pounds on it and drops a duty period. I don't understand why you don't believe me, go check across the board. Every base has a very positive net zero for captains and zero for FOs. Why? FOs have lances and first year guys. Captains don't.

DTC changes would be meaningless with a good net zero. So restrict the lances from dropping too many duty periods, restrict the first year guys from dropping their whole line and picking up everything at second year and you suddenly have a good, workable ELITT.

Or, you could vote no and keep a nearly useless ELITT for FOs. And give up your raises. Oh wait, you already did.

I think you are overlooking a few things with captain ELITT.

1) We are overstaffed, more on the CA side than the FO side. That, more than anything else, is causing the sky high net zero numbers. Before January '09, they never reached levels anywhere near where they are today. I saw plenty of prolonged net zeros on CA ELITT out of MDW and LAS in recent years and have had to fly plenty of trips from those bases that I could not give away (again, not in these over-staffed times, but in recent years that represented more of the historical norm.)

2) It has always been a seller's market for captain trips out of the senior bases and always will be. There are plenty of PHX, HOU, & DAL wannabees commuting out of those bases to the more junior ones. Of course the other side of that coin is....good luck finding any trips out of those senior bases these days! The only one benefitting from this environment is a CA that would like to fly as little as possible.

3) Captain trips pay around 65% more than FO trips (duh!) So there's even more incentive to pickup that weak BUR turn or some broken-up 3-day that pays 17....trips that wouldn't even get a second look from most FOs.

 

[ivauir]

SL32 requires the company to grow by 5% if they want to codeshare. There are no exceptions, no outs. The only out is to simply not abide.

You can have your 7% raise (not really after the reductions), I want job security.

Gup

There is a HUGE out - the arbitrators decision when you grieve it.

 

[GuppyWN]

I understand that. I would rather force the company to take us to arbitration than sign a contract that allows them a free out.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

Job Security?

SL32 requires the company to grow by 5% if they want to codeshare. There are no exceptions, no outs. The only out is to simply not abide.

You can have your 7% raise (not really after the reductions), I want job security.

Gup

Job Security and aviation in the same post? Talk about an oxy-moran. The AAL guys felt the same way when they voted no on RJ's for American Eagle back in the early 90's. As the AAL growth stagnated in relation to the other airlines having RJs in the feed system, they changed their minds. Guess what more growth, faster advancements, and other good things.

 

[PCL_128]

Job Security and aviation in the same post? Talk about an oxy-moran. The AAL guys felt the same way when they voted no on RJ's for American Eagle back in the early 90's. As the AAL growth stagnated in relation to the other airlines having RJs in the feed system, they changed their minds. Guess what more growth, faster advancements, and other good things.

You're joking, right?

 

[Dude]

This rejection is hopefully a move in the right direction. Our pilot group has given unfettered support to SWA for decades and finally decided to push back a little. We have issues with some of the items in the contract and hope to resolve them. I am glad that we have enough that are willing to stand up and tell SWA, "no thanks". We haven't fired the buildings and the barn, only stated that our association and SWA have more work to do.

This is only a big deal because in 31 years of SWAPA, we have NEVER said "NO!" to the company. With such a small margin, it's more like; "no, but thanks", but at least a no.

I heard guys were calling SWAPA all the way to 5 minutes prior to the close of the vote to ask when they could expect their retro check Oops.

 

[The Victors]

This rejection is hopefully a move in the right direction. Our pilot group has given unfettered support to SWA for decades and finally decided to push back a little. We have issues with some of the items in the contract and hope to resolve them. I am glad that we have enough that are willing to stand up and tell SWA, "no thanks". We haven't fired the buildings and the barn, only stated that our association and SWA have more work to do.

This is only a big deal because in 31 years of SWAPA, we have NEVER said "NO!" to the company. With such a small margin, it's more like; "no, but thanks", but at least a no.

I heard guys were calling SWAPA all the way to 5 minutes prior to the close of the vote to ask when they could expect their retro check Oops.

Should be interesting to see if a year from now you're saying " well guys I guess we should except this last company offer of 1% raises and unlimited domestic codeshare".