SWA TA fails

[DH2WN]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the Lances and ELITT that you refer to?

Lances are FOs/Capts. ELITT is just trip trading with open time

 

[N1atEcon]

Short version: 8 % of the hard lines get to be Lance Captains. So they are FO's checked out as CPT's. They can pick up or get assigned CPT trips. This way you have great senority on your bid for X-mas vacation ect. then you get rid of your remaining trips and pick up Cpt trips.
The company wanted to change it to 3.2%. So if we don't grow a lot of our pilots would have been hurt by this. And we never got a great reason for the draw down. It is like Mom and Dad saying "because I said so."
Like the UFLY Mike. Some A$$ in Dallas had an Axe to grind.
ELITT is a Line improvement program where you can do a multitude of things like trade a 4 day for a 3 day and a turn. Or trade a 3 day to a two day, or take a fri, sat, sun and move it to a sun, mon, tues ect. The company wanted to restrict a lot of our freedom on this area.

Code share was also a biggie.

Most guys could care less about the 2% raise it was mostly these items.

 

[fngswa]

I voted yes. I think most people, yes/no's, were surprised that it was voted down. I'm afraid the razor thin margin didn't help us. Either way, i think both sides wanted it to pass or fail by a larger margin. This wasn't about scope or codeshare. Unfortunately, it was about the lance captain program. Did people vote no for other reasons, of course. If they had just grandfathered the lance captain program i think we all agree it would have passed. What are we going to give up for this program? Nothing??? hmmmm i don't think so. The company is making much less money than when these terms were negotiated. Do i think the company will allow us to cherry pick certain issues...i hope so. If i was on the other side, hell no - lets start over. I'm disappointed that the info the NC got was possibly not the best, how else do you explain negotiating a contract that divided the pilot group. Just like 65, nobody guaranteed the lance captain program would be around when i got hired (uhhh....lance program what's that - i've got a job at SWA - sweeeet - my only thoughts).
I will fully support this vote. finger pointing lasts about a day and it is back to work for all of us. The No's have it, we will see what they can accomplish back at the drawing board

 

[Whine Lover]

" This wasn't about scope or codeshare. " (Funny and Sad )

" Mil some civil " ( Explains all )

Welcome to your new reality.

You will learn. ( Eventually )

Unfortunately, at the expense of others...


Love,

YKW

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now what am I gonna do with all those "Don't blame me, I voted no" flight bag stickers I had printed?

Another pilot group can use em soon!

 

[densoo]

50.84 % no 49.16 % yes
participation 95.9%

Management just wants 50% +1.

OTOH, pilots just need 50% -1 to get management to sweeten the pot.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Management just wants 50% +1.

OTOH, pilots just need 50% -1 to get management to sweeten the pot.

What is the historical pass rate at SWAPA?

A TA with such a low accpetance rate is a management contract... they will tweak to get just enough to accept it... don't look for sweeping changes....

The Scope issue will probably remain....

 

[fngswa]

"funny and sad" whether that is the case it is the truth, and to think anything else would be false

"mil/civil" what does that explain exactly, that i'm a senior FO at OUR company?

What is the new reality exactly? Has SWA management screwed you at some point. Have they ever (in the past) took advantage of you? I was on reserve for quite a long time, i can count on one hand the number of times i was really screwed on a reserve deal. This company has given me 3 times as many good deals as bad ones. Yup, i clear my board and pick up all the time, i was ok with scheduling "tweaks"

"You will learn...eventually" buddy, we both will learn - unless you know exactly what is going to happen in the future - please enlighten us oh great whine one

 

[CF34-3B1]

This wasn't about scope or codeshare. Unfortunately, it was about the lance captain program.

For me personally, it was very much about scope and codeshare.

And it still is.

 

[densoo]

What is the historical pass rate at SWAPA?

A TA with such a low accpetance rate is a management contract... they will tweak to get just enough to accept it... don't look for sweeping changes....

The Scope issue will probably remain....

I don't think it can be a tweak. When it fails the first time out, all the yes voters take a second look--and need more convincing. They realize that they're in a position to ask for more. That is why management pushes so hard for the first vote. Now, it isn't just convincing another 50 pilots to vote yes, it is convincing those who voted yes to vote yes again, plus the 50. Management is behind the power curve and pilots could get significantly more than just a little tweak, in my opinion. Close or not close, no is no.

 

[fngswa]

CF34-

I understand there were many that voted due to the scope and codeshare. I respect that reasoning and agree that for many this is the main issue. My point was just that if they had grandfathered the lances in we wouldn't even have this discussion - it would have passed. I don't think the NO vote was purely due to codeshare. I really hope we nail down that fine line that will be beneficial to us as a pilot group and beneficial to the company.
When i saw the TA i was surprised at some of the things that were in it (2.0 JA, Holiday Pay, Texting open time, etc) and what wasn't (sick buyback, reserve min pay - should be 19.5, >48 hour ELITT window)

 

[The Victors]

I don't think it can be a tweak. When it fails the first time out, all the yes voters take a second look--and need more convincing. They realize that they're in a position to ask for more. That is why management pushes so hard for the first vote. Now, it isn't just convincing another 50 pilots to vote yes, it is convincing those who voted yes to vote yes again, plus the 50. Management is behind the power curve and pilots could get significantly more than just a little tweak, in my opinion. Close or not close, no is no.

I agree. No little tweaks. This is going to be a long road to a new TA. Why would mgmt rush back to the table?

 

[puddlejumper101]

"funny and sad" whether that is the case it is the truth, and to think anything else would be false

"mil/civil" what does that explain exactly, that i'm a senior FO at OUR company?

What is the new reality exactly? Has SWA management screwed you at some point. Have they ever (in the past) took advantage of you? I was on reserve for quite a long time, i can count on one hand the number of times i was really screwed on a reserve deal. This company has given me 3 times as many good deals as bad ones. Yup, i clear my board and pick up all the time, i was ok with scheduling "tweaks"

"You will learn...eventually" buddy, we both will learn - unless you know exactly what is going to happen in the future - please enlighten us oh great whine one

I trust management and voted no. I like what we have now, why digress? For me it was a few issues that made me vote the way I did and none had to do with me wanting to burn the place down or hating SWA. This place has been great to me, but does that mean that I have to vote yes because of that reason? ELLITT and scheduling changes where a big deal, throw in a little codeshare (which doesn't burn my stomach like other guys) and it was a simple vote.

Honestly, my NO vote was more of a vote of no trust with SWAPA than with SWA. SWA will always try to get as much as they can, any company will. SWAPA sold this thing like it was the best thing they have ever done, while throwing 200 lances under the bus, and coming up with a complicated scheduling change that was brought to us by SWAPA. Did you know that many of these new terms in scheduling where developed by a certain individual that will sell the software to the company as soon as we pass it? He is one of us pushing his agenda. Tweak a few things, don't change the whole system. Plus, if you are asking me to continue working under our current contract then great...I like what we have. Dude I have no ill will towards SWA. SWAPA however could have done way better. Even if SWAPA would have said LANCE program is over, but all of the current LANCES will continue in the LANCE program until he or she has upgraded and no more LANCES after that then I would have been TOTALLY ok with that, and so would many of us. This protects current LANCES and finishes the program...that alone would have passed this TA.

 

[klr1395]

I agree. No little tweaks. This is going to be a long road to a new TA. Why would mgmt rush back to the table?

Heck, why would we? They negotiated in bad faith, now turnabout is fair play... More to the point, this current CBA ia a much better deal than the TA or likely TA2 we might get. (unless you are top 20% of the seniority list) I will stick with this as long as we can to avoid all the scheduling changes, open time, LC's etc.... I find it more than coincidental that negotiations take over 2 yrs, then as soon as the economy tanks, oila', we have a TA... I think we should go back to the table after the NC, and most of the BOD are replaced! We got out classed once and managed to survive here by a tight margin, let's get our act together for this round two! Cheers, klr

 

[Benjamin Dover]

CF34-

if they had grandfathered the lances in we wouldn't even have this discussion - it would have passed

How do you know this? I flew with a Lance that voted for the TA.

Not saying you're wrong. Just saying you don't really know. Pretty good guess, but out there with all the rest all crystal ballers really.

Waiting for round two,

BD

 

[murano]

Lances had nothing to do with my No vote. If they tweak just that, I will still vote no. And for those of you that say "I would have voted yes if the lances were grand-fathered" ... think about how narrow-minded that is! I got mine ... let's pull up the ladder!!!

 

[puddlejumper101]

I agree. No little tweaks. This is going to be a long road to a new TA. Why would mgmt rush back to the table?

is that really a bad thing right now? SWAPA negotiated on behalf of senior captains, I think this is where the problem lies, not with SWA. So we continue working under our current contract...hmm...not bad at all. QOL is definately better with what we have for EVERYONE from number 1 to number 6000. The new TA only truly benefited senior guys. That might not change but it sends a message. Age 65 truly split this pilot group in half...as it has become very obvious.

 

[bluebound]

Puddlejumper, I agree 100%. This contract was negotiated and pushed by the senior guys. I think if we could see a breakdown of the vote based on seniority it would be very clear. I don't think it would be a bad thing if TA2 took a long time, that way we could have more of a balanced representation on the BoD. For now I'll keep Elitt'en.

 

[GuppyWN]

Where's my ole buddy Mach .80?

Chime in old pal.

Gup

 

[vixin]

I voted NO on the entire contract. It was a big turd with very few if any positives. The Lances were my lowest priority, but still not right for our union to sell them short.

Codeshare a joke no teeth more meet and greet
Scope a joke " " " " " "
Raise an insult
ELITT
401k less then FA's ridiculous
POT no test period
Holiday pay
Reserves no improvement
The cheese was moved to far to the CA side and the vote shows it.