SWA TA fails

[aircowboy]

I trust management and voted no. . Dude I have no ill will towards SWA. SWAPA however could have done way better. Even if SWAPA would have said LANCE program is over, but all of the current LANCES will continue in the LANCE program until he or she has upgraded and no more LANCES after that then I would have been TOTALLY ok with that, and so would many of us. This protects current LANCES and finishes the program...that alone would have passed this TA.

Just Keep pulling up the ladder. The old I have got mine mentality...
as long as the current guys get to keep theirs screw everyone else!

 

[SWA/FO]

The Union said "it will pass...3-1" is what I heard. WRONG! I'm a proud NO voter. We did it, now it onto Chicago and lets win this thing!

Fix it SWAPA or we will find someone else to.

 

[SWA GUY]

I voted "NO" in this order(and I'm a Lance Captain):

1. Codeshare(job outsourcing)
2. Scheduling
3. LC Program.

I'll continue to vote "NO" if these things are not to my satisfaction!

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

So just so I understand this right..you guys think you're gonna get rid of codeshare completely?



SLC

 

[boilerflyer]

Ditto what SWA GUY said. Here's hoping they go back and get it right. (but I have my doubts when the SWAPA president speaks of the "steep hill we have to climb")

 

[Devil Dawg]

Voted no on codeshare alone!! Outsourcing sucks!!

I had a good friend recently ask what would make codeshare accetable? Too start with 1 for 1 but even that sucks. The only good codeshare is NONE!!!! How much of a paycut do I need to take for management not want to outsource my job?

How's this one... instead of "meet and discuss" how about the pilots group will get 33% of all revenue generated from codeshare that was not contractually agreed to.

Now that has some teeth!!

 

[PCL_128]

Congrats, guys. It would have been better to have a bigger margin, but at least you turned down a bad deal. That's twice in the past couple of years that pilot groups have turned down bad TAs (ATN and SWA). Maybe pilots are finally starting to grow a pair.

 

[walkthasky]

"I would have voted yes if the lances were grand-fathered" ... think about how narrow-minded that is! I got mine ... let's pull up the ladder!!!

Well...yeah...thats how the whole 65 thing went down right?

 

[jetflier]

Be aware of the union's self interest groups "smoke and mirror" tricks. NWA Alpa had a lobbying group that was able to convince the more junior pilots to vote in favor of the TA. Only to find out later that they were duped.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

We need a "no" voting FO/Jr CApt advocate on the
new NC. DAL Rep comes to mind.

 

[DH2WN]

We need a "no" voting FO/Jr CApt advocate on the
new NC. DAL Rep comes to mind.

No kidding!!!

And 50% FOs on the BOD
And 50% FOs on every committee

And, well 50% F-ing FOs with everything.

SWAPA is the biggest POS union ever!!

 

[GuppyWN]

The threshold has been crossed. The second "NO" vote only gets easier without dramatic improvements.

Especially after 2nd or even 3rd quarter numbers come out.

Gup

 

[fiel12]

Now what am I gonna do with all those "Don't blame me, I voted no" flight bag stickers I had printed?

Hang on to them. Alot of us will want one when TA2 passes by 51%

 

[fiel12]

The threshold has been crossed. The second "NO" vote only gets easier without dramatic improvements.

Especially after 2nd or even 3rd quarter numbers come out.

Gup

I hope you're right.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Just Keep pulling up the ladder. The old I have got mine mentality...
as long as the current guys get to keep theirs screw everyone else!

Well, I don't know exactly where you are going with this in relation to my quote. Actually for the first time in a long time a pilot group as a whole told the senior guys to take it back and represent us all. I am pretty junior so this lance captain program really has nothing to do with me directly. By the time I upgrade the program will probably be history, but I do think this started with Age 65. SWAPA was totally behind the age 65 movement for about 200-300 guys that where about to hit 60. We stop growing, and now find ourselves 200-300 pilots over staffed. Now that the bottom 200-300 Captains are being told to forget the Lance Program and go back to being F/Os. SWAPA is telling the bottom 200-300 Captains (or senior F/Os depending on who you ask) to go back to the right seat because we did not want to support you. I actually do have a problem with that. Like I said do away with the Lance Program, just keep those guys in the program until they can upgrade, that way they keep their seat, Company gets to do away with the program and SWAPA represents them. The union threw those guys under the bus, good for their sake this thing did not pass.

You are right though SWAPA is all senior Captains except for a few guys. So they sold the junior guys down the river not just with the Lance program, but also with scheduling. Thank God enough senior guys had heartache with Codeshare and voted no, if not this thing would have passed. Age 65 split this group. The problem is not with SWA as much as it is with SWAPA and the senior guys who run it.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Great job LUV!!! You have just given the rest of us hope!!!
AA767AV8TOR

 

[SWA/FO]

You are right though SWAPA is all senior Captains except for a few guys. So they sold the junior guys down the river not just with the Lance program, but also with scheduling. Thank God enough senior guys had heartache with Codeshare and voted no, if not this thing would have passed. Age 65 split this group. The problem is not with SWA as much as it is with SWAPA and the senior guys who run it.

exactly....

 

[relief tube]

Being Rational 1, kool-aid 0

congrats fellas.

wish there was a such thing as a breakdown by age. Bet the 60+er's were 98% yes. f 'em

 

[fam62c]

It sounds like even if you can't get an acceptable deal anytime soon you might be better off with the contract you have now. If oil prices keep going up, costs keep rising because of no growth and the second quarter loss is high the proposed deal may not get any better but it sounds like what you already have now might be the best thing all things considered. Best of luck either way.

 

[chris69]

I agree with most of the NO sentiments on this board, actually tried to find everything I could positive in this TA, but it simply had too many flaws. The sales job was disappointingly one sided. Below is the compensation breakdown from SWAPA, which, from a senior FO perspective with a delayed upgrade, I thought was, in and of itself, not a reason to vote NO:
This is a quick summary of the value of the compensation package for four different representative pilots on our seniority list; senior/junior Captain and senior/junior F/O. Lance Captains (LC) were not addressed in this analysis due to significant individual variability with respect to the amount of Captain and F/O flying done. Data from the representative pilot analysis details the increases per month, per year, career and for the life of the contract for the representative pilots. The estimates are based on two levels of pay, 87 and 100 TFP. Typically we would use the average TFP of 110 which is the long term historical average. However, with reduced flying this year, we elected to use 87 and 100. The estimates will not be exact for your specific situation but should give you a good idea of what the compensation sections effect will be for you.


Estimated personal financial impact of the proposed tentative agreement…

Based on 100 TFP per MonthPilot ExamplesAgeTenureIncreaseMonthly RaiseYearly RaiseCareer Value (Up to Age 65)Retro * †Senior CA (#27,XXX)5512+6.12%$1,062$12,744$138,614$11,174Junior CA (#56,XXX)4686.12%$1,017$12,204$250,658$9,314Senior FO (#66,XXX) ¹4379.34%$1,013$12,156$294,804$6,936Junior FO (#91,XXX) ²2616.12%$281$3,372$487,612$1,860


Based on 87 TFP per MonthPilot ExamplesAgeTenureIncreaseMonthly RaiseYearly RaiseCareer Value (Up to Age 65)Retro * †Senior CA (#27,XXX)5512+6.12%$924$11,087$122,047$11,174Junior CA (#56,XXX)4686.12%$885$10,617$219,283$9,314Senior FO (#66,XXX) ¹4379.34%$881$10,576$257,381$6,936Junior FO (#91,XXX) ²2616.12%$244$2,934$424,464$1,860* Based on 100 TFP per Month
† 22 Months of Retro if Ratified on 03Jun
¹ Assumes CA upgrade at year 10
² Assumes CA upgrade at year 12

However, look at the disingenuous age assumption for the junior FO. We have a total of 23 pilots under 30 in the whole airline. The average new hire age, according to the old class lists was 37. Makes the career value number much less than that posted. Another simply shallow salesjob.

Still, just too many negatives for a YES vote. One of our senior DAL guys wrote a great letter that many of us signed, which I hope someone will post, which was spot on. We are already getting spun by the press for turning down raises in these tough times and I don't think there is an underpaid and envious reporter out there that would even try to understand our reasoning. Oh well.
C