SWA pilots going to vote down the TA

[bravodude]

When I buy tickets, I can beat SWA seat prices on a number of airlines right now. The $49 does not seem to be available when I want to travel or where I am going. SWA load factors are lower than other airlines, they have to sell at that price to keep LF where they are.

Our LF has always been lower since we are point to point airline and not a hub and spoke carrier

 

[Daddy]

Orion,
You and others will be extremely disappointed when you vote this TA in. You see the 130/month now because we have a good contract now. We are overmanned right now...look at the new "shoulder/torso cuts" for Aug-Oct. The company wants us working at straight time for the next couple years of stagnation/shrinkage...this contract is the way to do it. Yes, productivity will go down...how do I know? Ask the guy who got us a lot of the things we have now, JD Stewart...he says productivity will DECREASE significantly with this contract. The company is not going to furlough as they know things really will get ugly with labor, so they can reduce costs by having us all fly at straight pay or less (6.0 reserves). The company knows we will give up anything to get these things back in a couple years when the contract ends. They have done very well here...they will shut down JA/VJA over the weekends and get line values down even more and get even more pilots working for 6TFP/day with the 25% reserve increase. We gave all that away for free and have sucked throughout negotiations. The FA's got our codeshare protection, faster 401K ramp up, and more pay AND they even improved their contract rules. I do not think you have read the TA...just the exec summary. You seem like a smart guy...please read the TA and you will see that the exec summary is very one-sided and misleading. We got our butts kicked at the table here...listen to the conf call with the NC and you will hear the ignorance of the contract from those who "negotiated" for us. Our contract rocks right now...it is MUCH better than the TA. I'll take it over this TA because it is worth more even with the raises.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Our LF has always been lower since we are point to point airline and not a hub and spoke carrier

And I'll bet the tooth fairy has come to visit you only once. Otherwise you'd have the "teeth" fairy visit you.
Either way, I'm sure you get to see lots of fairy's!:laugh:

 

[GuppyWN]

The company will NEVER negotiate anything that reduces productivity, no matter the current environment or staffing levels.

Have you read the contract?

By further restricting ELITT, capping drop days through ELITT, reducing lance pick-ups,reducing the number of lance captains, and eliminating the current extra fly that is EXACTLY what the company is doing.

BTW, I'm not going to spend all day chasing a computer to decifer the OTA text messages. That reduces my flexibility with my family on my days off.

You're telling me that with no open time on the captain side that the company wanted to raise reserves to 10% to increase my flexibility and productivity?

I suggest you get your finances in order because you're about to take a paycut - in cash and flexibility.

Gup

 

[Daddy]

Right as usual, Gup...it will take time to get the word out, but my bet is most folks will see the logic if they truly think about it. I used to average 8.2-8.3 TFP per day here (over 9 one month)...I am now down to just over 7 after the DTC concession and the shoulder cuts. I expect most will be down in the high sixes before it is all over. But this is only a pay cut if I dont WORK MORE, right?

 

[FlyinGuy]

I have already taken a 10% cut this year. I was flying 115 and now I am down to 100-105 for the same days worked. I am guessing at least another 5% around the August time frame. If this passes, I am guessing it might be a few more percent along with another 1-2 years added on to my upgrade time. Voting No...for many reasons. I was expecting a neutral contract with a small raise, but this thing is a disaster.

 

[Orionflyer]

You guys are all making my point. You've lost tfp already because of the reduction in ASMs, NOT THE TA!!! The ASM to pilot ratio is the only thing that will affect that number!! Right now with the economy, we are having trouble keeping up the ASMs (see August schedule) and we just had our first operating loss in some time (don't start with the conspiracies).

I agree that the TA may reduce some 'flexibility' in the form of restricting ELITT (do any of you remember LITT or the dark days before that??). But it will still be a reasonable tool for most of the group. Lance reductions are indeed tough for those affected but that may only serve to maintain or increase premium flying for CAs since there are less eager 60ks to pick up EF straight. The pool of 2days and turns will be unchanged and I still think much of that will be bid and given away.

I do not believe that productivity will be affected by this TA -only by the change in ASMs and any efforts that may happen to change the pilot staffing. It almost sounds like some of you are wishing for a furlough so you can maintain your monthly trip average. Until the flying comes back, it is gonna be lean times. Don't blame it on the work rules or the TA. I respectfully submit that it is crazy to think that the company wants to negotiate less productivity for any of its work groups.

 

[GuppyWN]

I respectfully submit that it is crazy to think that the company wants to negotiate less productivity for any of its work groups.

I respectfully submit that you're full of sh!t.

Gup

 

[Reebo]

I have already taken a 10% cut this year. I was flying 115 and now I am down to 100-105 for the same days worked. I am guessing at least another 5% around the August time frame. If this passes, I am guessing it might be a few more percent along with another 1-2 years added on to my upgrade time. Voting No...for many reasons. I was expecting a neutral contract with a small raise, but this thing is a disaster.

Ever heard of "line guarantee"

No on is taking a pay cut. The system is based on greed and many have allowed themselves to live beyond their means and now that the game is changing they are crying "pay cut" :bawling:

Trust me, I do feel for the Lance's as I would've like to have seen them being grandfathered, but this whole pay cut thing is a joke.

It won't be long before someone figures out how to work the new system and there will be a few new "Mafia's" and "Cartels" in every base.

 

[DH2WN]

Reebo you are a Buffoon.

Most lines are now made up between 85-92 TFP and many ELITT to 100 without working extra days just to make up for the shoulder cuts. ELITT will now restrict people from trading and thus having lower TFP but the pay is nominally increased. Therefore, there is zero increase in pay and for many is a small pay cut.

The SWA model used to be based on people working hard and getting compensated for it. Now it's fly your line and get the guarantee. Guess that works for you. Most people want flexibility to change their schedule around and max their pay out. Thus, not to be like United and the rest.

This TA sucks and needs to be voted down for 100+ reasons in addition to the pay cut most of us will be taking.

The day Herb stepped down is the day the culture and good will at this company died.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Canceled flight no pay<<

First of all, that is crap and is another example of why this TA is going to pass because the fear mongers are pulling wild accusations out of their intestines that are slowing getting squelched with the truth.

As far as canceled flight pay goes, you cannot make less than what you were originally scheduled for or what you actually fly. That has always been the case.

What the TA does is codify something that has actually been scheduling practice for decades, but not spelled out officially in the contract.

Here is the deal. On those rare occasions that a massive weather system has melted down large parts of the system and crews are sitting around while scheds tries to rebuild the system and get people flying again, they had situations where they thought that the weather would improve or the airport would re-open or whatever at a certain time so they would start adding trips to guy's lines in an effort to get things moving. Well, as is often the case, things would get delayed even more so they would scratch that first plan and try a different one. Or for example, an early decision would be to cancel flights up to a certain hour and then the weather doesn't improve so the timeline is extended and flights they thought were going to happen get canceled as well.

The bottom line is often in those melt down situations guys can have their schedules changed several times during the period of trying to get things running again.

What happened was we actually had guys who had two or three flights that were put on their schedules and for a given day and then the flights got canceled and replaced with other flights and these guys thought that they should be paid FOR ALL OF THEM even if they overlapped each other making it impossible to fly them, or were on their board for only a few minutes before being changed. Those guys were idiots and were just trying to play games with the contract, so even though the policy isn't changing at all, they are simply codifying long standing practice into the new contract.

With regard to cancellations, we can still never earn less than what we were originally scheduled for or what we actually fly as has been our policy for decades.

Another example is the wild rumor of sitting the last reserve block for free. This is another one that simply isn't true.

The No voters had a chance in the early days of the contract to defeat it when all of the rumors and innuendos were at their peak, but the longer the process takes, the more those inaccuracies will be clarified and the more chance the TA has of passing.

It is far from perfect, but it will pass. There is no doubt about that.

 

[pilotyip]

SWA still has the lowest CSM, .085 of any airline and they do that through productivity. That is employee per airplane. They have reduced employee per airplane from 85 in 2003 to 66 to 2008. This has been done through hiring freezes while increasing the fleet along with eliminating positions. From 2007 to 2008 SWA added 17 airplanes with identical total passengers carried. They are no longer the low cost carrier. They have a lower load factor than most other airlines, therefore the yield per RPM has to be greater, causing higher prices for tickets, thusly fewer passengers. The op cost sm is .102. This means they are loosing on aircraft operation .02 for every seat mile they fly. They are on track to loose 100M this quarter. Please do not attack me for flaming SWA, this is all out of the latest issue of ATW. SWA has to do something, this can not go on for ever.

 

[737tanker]

>>
Another example is the wild rumor of sitting the last reserve block for free. This is another one that simply isn't true.

This is no rumor. I was on the conference call that the NC had and heard the Chairman of the NC admit that they had goofed and had put the old reserve language in, where you didn't get paid extra for Reserve days when you didn't fly after already meeting the guarantee. He said that the NC was going to go back to the company and "try" to get this corrected, good luck with that. There is a lot of similar language issues in this TA, as well as the ELITT issues and the Lance issues, that need to be corrected. I've been at SWA since 1994 working under this contract, I can continue to work under the current contract for a couple of more years. This TA has to be sent back and get everything that is wrong corrected, instead of hoping that SWAPA can negotiate the changes in two years.

 

[Widow's Son]

The reserve thing was a misprint that has already been fixed.

 

[JumpJetter]

The SWA model used to be based on people working hard and getting compensated for it. Now it's fly your line and get the guarantee. Guess that works for you. Most people want flexibility to change their schedule around and max their pay out. Thus, not to be like United and the rest.

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

 

[StopNTSing]

This is no rumor. I was on the conference call that the NC had and heard the Chairman of the NC admit that they had goofed and had put the old reserve language in, where you didn't get paid extra for Reserve days when you didn't fly after already meeting the guarantee. He said that the NC was going to go back to the company and "try" to get this corrected, good luck with that. There is a lot of similar language issues in this TA, as well as the ELITT issues and the Lance issues, that need to be corrected. I've been at SWA since 1994 working under this contract, I can continue to work under the current contract for a couple of more years. This TA has to be sent back and get everything that is wrong corrected, instead of hoping that SWAPA can negotiate the changes in two years.

I'll bet it would be easier to get that corrected following a decisive NO! vote from the membership. As if I didn't already have enough reasons to vote no....:smash:

 

[Reebo]

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

So true!!!

 

[DH2WN]

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

Very few people do that.

a. you have to be senior enough to have trips people want.

b. there has to be VJA available to get called, which there isn't.


You are angry at a few people who drop their trips instead of looking at the whole of having your flexibility to trading trips removed.

 

[RedDogC130]

You then have to be mad at the people that pick the trips from these guys... like me...I am not a tournament player but work it good and this lack of flexibility pisses me off. I never do the VJA thing because I like my sched set..now all these guys ie: lances will not put the trips in giveaway and now I have to resort to playing the system to get extra trips...this hurts everyone.

 

[JumpJetter]

which is the same reason I don't like it.