SWA pilots going to vote down the TA

[Orionflyer]

firstthrid

Here's my educated guess:

- Guys will still bid turns and two day lines because they want to clear their board, whether they are lances or just "players" who rely on EF and VJA for killer months. The supply of these schedule fillers will remain unchanged.

- More flying is uncovered on the weekend because of the ELITT trades (which will still happen... just 3 down to 2 % for two weekends and normal limits for the rest) and because people would rather do other things. When the VJ rate is high (weekend or not), it is because the pilots sense the need and because not enough people will do straight time. This won't change... Instead of EF starting at 0900 herb, uncovered stuff will get bid on all day... if no one bids it straight, it'll go to premium bid, then FCFS with premium.

- the higher reserve percentage is not way out of line with previous staffing practice when reserves have been increased for certain periods. I've heard guys on the conference calls arguing that this is bad because it needlessly restricts the company. Either way, there are still a given amount of block hours to fly and a certain number of pilots. With more reserve lines, there's more open time right there (unless they hire more pilots or make denser lines... generally consider good things). The demand for that open time will still be the main determinant of premium pay... that demand is controlled by staffing (right now, too high with more flight cuts in August).

(... the issue of restrictions on Reserve guys picking up with respect to the 100 hr rule is a whole different story....)

 

[GuppyWN]

Orionflyer,

Extra fly is gone. Under the TA you still get to bid with DOT. If the trip is not taken with DOT it will then be placed in a pot in which pilots on the Open Time Alert system will be notified via text. It will be up to you to be on or near a computer all the dang time to actually see the trip because there will be no phone calls describing the trips.

You do have the ability to place a standing bid for uncovered trips. Your selection criteria is only base, seat, am/pm, pay, number of days and overnight city. It does not include legs per day, swaps, ground time or where the trip goes (only the overnight city). Maybe you commute? You won't know if there are deadheads that would allow you to spend an extra night at home and still make the trip downline. There are no phone calls. No option to pass. If the trip meets your criteria you are simply assigned and notified you have a trip on your board.

My problem. What if you wanted to spend the day away from a computer with your family while taking calls from scheduling so you could find out the real story about the trip? You're only option is to take a trip you don't really know much about or pass. I will pass. So will many others. Why do you think reserves are up to 10%?

This will reduce your flexibility and your ability to pick up decent trips.

Read the contract for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Hope this helps,
Gup

 

[Orionflyer]

Gup

You are correct, EF as we know it is gone. I think you are right to be concerned that the proposed OTA system has the potential to be less than adequate. But consider....

- all pairings that come up after 0831 herb (meaning no need to recheck DOT at 0859) will migrate into the later DOT/POT closings AND into the new OTA. That is the key. Throughout the day prior to the pairing, instead of some scheduling new hire calling a hundred names, the pairing will be posted for a later bid and e-mailed/texted to all who have requested to be notified. If you are somewhere "on the grid", you'll get a chance to bid the trip (either straight or premium, if you're picky and bold) and wait until that DOT close to see who got it. And, of course, you still have the option to just pass. The FCFS system for same day short notice stuff is more like the old EF but again with just the message and no seniority bidding... fastest finger wins.

- Now you raise a very valid concern about the quality and content of the OTA message. The TA spells out the trip criteria you cite, but uses the word "minimum". There is nothing to prevent more info being included in the message. In fact, given that the technical hurdles all lie in coordinating the scheduling computers with some notification technology, I submit that it won't be long before every trip detail (legs, DHs, everything you see in cwa) will be included in the OTA message. The company doesn't want to play "I've got a secret" with open time.

Yes, everyone's "cheese is being moved" but once we insist (and we will) that the entire trip be in the OTA message, this will be great. Don't you hate getting the EF call and having 30 seconds to decide? Now you get the message, think about it, then reply with a straight or premium bid. I actually think it sounds much better. Don't let the fact that much of this was done to reduce the burden on scheduling stand in the way of accepting a change/improvement.

Regarding reserves, if the company had it's wish, reserves would be back at 8% if not lower. They are not raising it because they expect us to stop taking extra trips. We asked for the higher number to reduce JAs and maybe increase hiring, but if this has the unintended consequence of reducing open time (thru higher staffing) then we should revisit and go back to 8 via side letter. This could go a lot of ways depending on our ASMs and hiring so it's hard to cover every possibility.


Remember all.... this company thrives on pilots flying extra and picking up lots of open time. It is not in their interest to reduce this option. I submit that the proposed DOT/OTA system only improves the process with gains for both pilots and the less burdened schedulers. The only reduction in flexibility that I see is in ELITT where we gave up some flex with no real gain. But this has always been a side letter issue that the company could have terminated at any time. They are just trying to get back a little sanity one one more weekend a month. Putting it in the contract at all could be considered a gain since now they can't unilaterally terminate it.


Open Time = Block hours / pilots

This simple formula has not changed.

 

[Daddy]

Orion,
The 130 per month guys are gone when this thing gets signed. The flexibility of ELITT and our current system is what allows that kind of productivity. Once we concede all this flexibility, we will have to negotiate it back in lieu of raises next time around. We are presently overstaffed and the company just wants people flying their line right now. When we grow again, they will let us negotiate this productivity back. We are being played for suckers and it will probably work. ELITT will be locked up with DTC for 2 weekends every month, plus 2 more weekends every year plus more holidays than before (read TA not exec summary for that). Why would anyone clear their board now if there is no real lancing, no real migration of flying off the weekends, and 10% reserves to staff it all...that is a 25% increase by the way. I have been a habitual ELITTer from the start and we lost big when we agreed to do to DTC in the first place and we will lose big now. If you are a 130 TFP per month guy, please reconsider voting yes as you will lose more money than you can imagine.

 

[RedDogC130]

It is the guys with the AD mil retirement that we have to worry about voting yes because they do not want to rock the boat and mess up their retirement gig and mostly have no clue what is going on with this stuff and are still voting because they think the company will "take care" of them...I actualy had a guy say he was willing to take a zero COLA if the company asked....I was in shock....We did not speak too much the rest of the trip after that discussion.

This is all just from personal experience talking with some of them if I was in their shoes maybe I would feel the same but I am not so I don't...not all are like that I know

 

[fiel12]

My last two trips were with retired AF guys, and they were both going to vote no. So I guess there's a little ray of hope. BTW, codeshare was the big issue for them.

 

[pilotyip]

What to do?

So the company is under econ pressure, they have a number of options available to reduce costs. They have already made tremendous strides in reducing non-flight employees per airplane. Now they have to address the flight crews. It looks like they are trying to preserve flight crew jobs by reducing how much each pilot works and gets paid. Is there possibility that if this TA is rejected, the other option comes into play, and that would be layoffs. With the lay offs a majority of the pilots could keep what they have now by sacrificing the junior flight crew.

 

[RedDogC130]

So the company is under econ pressure, they have a number of options available to reduce costs. They have already made tremendous strides in reducing non-flight employees per airplane. Now they have to address the flight crews. It looks like they are trying to preserve flight crew jobs by reducing how much each pilot works and gets paid. Is there possibility that if this TA is rejected, the other option comes into play, and that would be layoffs. With the lay offs a majority of the pilots could keep what they have now by sacrificing the junior flight crew.

I do not buy that excuse at the present time. When the company is still selling seats at $49...it can't be too bad.

 

[Orionflyer]

Daddy

The 130 per month guys are what makes this company work. Why do you think the company wants to kill that? You said "the company just wants people flying their line now". They'd have to hire 1000 guys if we all did that! The company will NEVER negotiate anything that reduces productivity, no matter the current environment or staffing levels.

Pilotyip - I agree that they are doing their best to avoid furloughs of pilots for culture and cost reasons, but there is no way they are negotiating reductions in productivity to keep everyone around.

Again, you 130 per month guys are going to be fine. The ONLY thing that can reduce that is overmanning (i.e. lower ASMs or too much hiring).

If the 130 per month guys become 90 per month, who exactly is going do that flying??? It's not the reserves, they are back to pretty high usage (for FOs) if you look at the boards I've seen. The senior guys who tried bidding reserve to avoid work are bailing back into lines.

OT = ASM / pilots !!!!! OrionFlyer's law (ha!)

 

[pilotyip]

they have too

I do not buy that excuse at the present time. When the company is still selling seats at $49...it can't be too bad.

When I buy tickets, I can beat SWA seat prices on a number of airlines right now. The $49 does not seem to be available when I want to travel or where I am going. SWA load factors are lower than other airlines, they have to sell at that price to keep LF where they are.

 

[bravodude]

When I buy tickets, I can beat SWA seat prices on a number of airlines right now. The $49 does not seem to be available when I want to travel or where I am going. SWA load factors are lower than other airlines, they have to sell at that price to keep LF where they are.

Our LF has always been lower since we are point to point airline and not a hub and spoke carrier

 

[Daddy]

Orion,
You and others will be extremely disappointed when you vote this TA in. You see the 130/month now because we have a good contract now. We are overmanned right now...look at the new "shoulder/torso cuts" for Aug-Oct. The company wants us working at straight time for the next couple years of stagnation/shrinkage...this contract is the way to do it. Yes, productivity will go down...how do I know? Ask the guy who got us a lot of the things we have now, JD Stewart...he says productivity will DECREASE significantly with this contract. The company is not going to furlough as they know things really will get ugly with labor, so they can reduce costs by having us all fly at straight pay or less (6.0 reserves). The company knows we will give up anything to get these things back in a couple years when the contract ends. They have done very well here...they will shut down JA/VJA over the weekends and get line values down even more and get even more pilots working for 6TFP/day with the 25% reserve increase. We gave all that away for free and have sucked throughout negotiations. The FA's got our codeshare protection, faster 401K ramp up, and more pay AND they even improved their contract rules. I do not think you have read the TA...just the exec summary. You seem like a smart guy...please read the TA and you will see that the exec summary is very one-sided and misleading. We got our butts kicked at the table here...listen to the conf call with the NC and you will hear the ignorance of the contract from those who "negotiated" for us. Our contract rocks right now...it is MUCH better than the TA. I'll take it over this TA because it is worth more even with the raises.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Our LF has always been lower since we are point to point airline and not a hub and spoke carrier

And I'll bet the tooth fairy has come to visit you only once. Otherwise you'd have the "teeth" fairy visit you.
Either way, I'm sure you get to see lots of fairy's!:laugh:

 

[GuppyWN]

The company will NEVER negotiate anything that reduces productivity, no matter the current environment or staffing levels.

Have you read the contract?

By further restricting ELITT, capping drop days through ELITT, reducing lance pick-ups,reducing the number of lance captains, and eliminating the current extra fly that is EXACTLY what the company is doing.

BTW, I'm not going to spend all day chasing a computer to decifer the OTA text messages. That reduces my flexibility with my family on my days off.

You're telling me that with no open time on the captain side that the company wanted to raise reserves to 10% to increase my flexibility and productivity?

I suggest you get your finances in order because you're about to take a paycut - in cash and flexibility.

Gup

 

[Daddy]

Right as usual, Gup...it will take time to get the word out, but my bet is most folks will see the logic if they truly think about it. I used to average 8.2-8.3 TFP per day here (over 9 one month)...I am now down to just over 7 after the DTC concession and the shoulder cuts. I expect most will be down in the high sixes before it is all over. But this is only a pay cut if I dont WORK MORE, right?

 

[FlyinGuy]

I have already taken a 10% cut this year. I was flying 115 and now I am down to 100-105 for the same days worked. I am guessing at least another 5% around the August time frame. If this passes, I am guessing it might be a few more percent along with another 1-2 years added on to my upgrade time. Voting No...for many reasons. I was expecting a neutral contract with a small raise, but this thing is a disaster.

 

[Orionflyer]

You guys are all making my point. You've lost tfp already because of the reduction in ASMs, NOT THE TA!!! The ASM to pilot ratio is the only thing that will affect that number!! Right now with the economy, we are having trouble keeping up the ASMs (see August schedule) and we just had our first operating loss in some time (don't start with the conspiracies).

I agree that the TA may reduce some 'flexibility' in the form of restricting ELITT (do any of you remember LITT or the dark days before that??). But it will still be a reasonable tool for most of the group. Lance reductions are indeed tough for those affected but that may only serve to maintain or increase premium flying for CAs since there are less eager 60ks to pick up EF straight. The pool of 2days and turns will be unchanged and I still think much of that will be bid and given away.

I do not believe that productivity will be affected by this TA -only by the change in ASMs and any efforts that may happen to change the pilot staffing. It almost sounds like some of you are wishing for a furlough so you can maintain your monthly trip average. Until the flying comes back, it is gonna be lean times. Don't blame it on the work rules or the TA. I respectfully submit that it is crazy to think that the company wants to negotiate less productivity for any of its work groups.

 

[GuppyWN]

I respectfully submit that it is crazy to think that the company wants to negotiate less productivity for any of its work groups.

I respectfully submit that you're full of sh!t.

Gup

 

[Reebo]

I have already taken a 10% cut this year. I was flying 115 and now I am down to 100-105 for the same days worked. I am guessing at least another 5% around the August time frame. If this passes, I am guessing it might be a few more percent along with another 1-2 years added on to my upgrade time. Voting No...for many reasons. I was expecting a neutral contract with a small raise, but this thing is a disaster.

Ever heard of "line guarantee"

No on is taking a pay cut. The system is based on greed and many have allowed themselves to live beyond their means and now that the game is changing they are crying "pay cut" :bawling:

Trust me, I do feel for the Lance's as I would've like to have seen them being grandfathered, but this whole pay cut thing is a joke.

It won't be long before someone figures out how to work the new system and there will be a few new "Mafia's" and "Cartels" in every base.

 

[DH2WN]

Reebo you are a Buffoon.

Most lines are now made up between 85-92 TFP and many ELITT to 100 without working extra days just to make up for the shoulder cuts. ELITT will now restrict people from trading and thus having lower TFP but the pay is nominally increased. Therefore, there is zero increase in pay and for many is a small pay cut.

The SWA model used to be based on people working hard and getting compensated for it. Now it's fly your line and get the guarantee. Guess that works for you. Most people want flexibility to change their schedule around and max their pay out. Thus, not to be like United and the rest.

This TA sucks and needs to be voted down for 100+ reasons in addition to the pay cut most of us will be taking.

The day Herb stepped down is the day the culture and good will at this company died.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Canceled flight no pay<<

First of all, that is crap and is another example of why this TA is going to pass because the fear mongers are pulling wild accusations out of their intestines that are slowing getting squelched with the truth.

As far as canceled flight pay goes, you cannot make less than what you were originally scheduled for or what you actually fly. That has always been the case.

What the TA does is codify something that has actually been scheduling practice for decades, but not spelled out officially in the contract.

Here is the deal. On those rare occasions that a massive weather system has melted down large parts of the system and crews are sitting around while scheds tries to rebuild the system and get people flying again, they had situations where they thought that the weather would improve or the airport would re-open or whatever at a certain time so they would start adding trips to guy's lines in an effort to get things moving. Well, as is often the case, things would get delayed even more so they would scratch that first plan and try a different one. Or for example, an early decision would be to cancel flights up to a certain hour and then the weather doesn't improve so the timeline is extended and flights they thought were going to happen get canceled as well.

The bottom line is often in those melt down situations guys can have their schedules changed several times during the period of trying to get things running again.

What happened was we actually had guys who had two or three flights that were put on their schedules and for a given day and then the flights got canceled and replaced with other flights and these guys thought that they should be paid FOR ALL OF THEM even if they overlapped each other making it impossible to fly them, or were on their board for only a few minutes before being changed. Those guys were idiots and were just trying to play games with the contract, so even though the policy isn't changing at all, they are simply codifying long standing practice into the new contract.

With regard to cancellations, we can still never earn less than what we were originally scheduled for or what we actually fly as has been our policy for decades.

Another example is the wild rumor of sitting the last reserve block for free. This is another one that simply isn't true.

The No voters had a chance in the early days of the contract to defeat it when all of the rumors and innuendos were at their peak, but the longer the process takes, the more those inaccuracies will be clarified and the more chance the TA has of passing.

It is far from perfect, but it will pass. There is no doubt about that.

 

[pilotyip]

SWA still has the lowest CSM, .085 of any airline and they do that through productivity. That is employee per airplane. They have reduced employee per airplane from 85 in 2003 to 66 to 2008. This has been done through hiring freezes while increasing the fleet along with eliminating positions. From 2007 to 2008 SWA added 17 airplanes with identical total passengers carried. They are no longer the low cost carrier. They have a lower load factor than most other airlines, therefore the yield per RPM has to be greater, causing higher prices for tickets, thusly fewer passengers. The op cost sm is .102. This means they are loosing on aircraft operation .02 for every seat mile they fly. They are on track to loose 100M this quarter. Please do not attack me for flaming SWA, this is all out of the latest issue of ATW. SWA has to do something, this can not go on for ever.

 

[737tanker]

>>
Another example is the wild rumor of sitting the last reserve block for free. This is another one that simply isn't true.

This is no rumor. I was on the conference call that the NC had and heard the Chairman of the NC admit that they had goofed and had put the old reserve language in, where you didn't get paid extra for Reserve days when you didn't fly after already meeting the guarantee. He said that the NC was going to go back to the company and "try" to get this corrected, good luck with that. There is a lot of similar language issues in this TA, as well as the ELITT issues and the Lance issues, that need to be corrected. I've been at SWA since 1994 working under this contract, I can continue to work under the current contract for a couple of more years. This TA has to be sent back and get everything that is wrong corrected, instead of hoping that SWAPA can negotiate the changes in two years.

 

[Widow's Son]

The reserve thing was a misprint that has already been fixed.

 

[JumpJetter]

The SWA model used to be based on people working hard and getting compensated for it. Now it's fly your line and get the guarantee. Guess that works for you. Most people want flexibility to change their schedule around and max their pay out. Thus, not to be like United and the rest.

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

 

[StopNTSing]

This is no rumor. I was on the conference call that the NC had and heard the Chairman of the NC admit that they had goofed and had put the old reserve language in, where you didn't get paid extra for Reserve days when you didn't fly after already meeting the guarantee. He said that the NC was going to go back to the company and "try" to get this corrected, good luck with that. There is a lot of similar language issues in this TA, as well as the ELITT issues and the Lance issues, that need to be corrected. I've been at SWA since 1994 working under this contract, I can continue to work under the current contract for a couple of more years. This TA has to be sent back and get everything that is wrong corrected, instead of hoping that SWAPA can negotiate the changes in two years.

I'll bet it would be easier to get that corrected following a decisive NO! vote from the membership. As if I didn't already have enough reasons to vote no....:smash:

 

[Reebo]

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

So true!!!

 

[DH2WN]

So dropping your whole line to make yourself legal for VJA (time and a half flying) is "working hard" and "maximizing productivity"?

I don't like the new TA restrictions either, but it would be nice you "playas" would at least be honest about the reasons why you don't want changes to the current system.

Very few people do that.

a. you have to be senior enough to have trips people want.

b. there has to be VJA available to get called, which there isn't.


You are angry at a few people who drop their trips instead of looking at the whole of having your flexibility to trading trips removed.

 

[RedDogC130]

You then have to be mad at the people that pick the trips from these guys... like me...I am not a tournament player but work it good and this lack of flexibility pisses me off. I never do the VJA thing because I like my sched set..now all these guys ie: lances will not put the trips in giveaway and now I have to resort to playing the system to get extra trips...this hurts everyone.

 

[JumpJetter]

which is the same reason I don't like it.