SWA pilots going to vote down the TA

[PCL_128]

Did he get his job back?

He's still waiting for his arbitration date. He'll be back, though.

 

[GuppyWN]

Being one who has not made up my mind I would like to know specifically what you would change in the TA. Be realistic because code share is going to be in there. The deal has been done with two carriers and will not be changed. You know as well as I the only recourse we have is a strike and that will never happen. SWAPA will never even take a strike vote because the results would be disastrous for the pilots and only serve to embolden the company (IMO). I for one don't see much if any improvement once a mediator gets involved and that’s where it is going when/if it is voted down. I wish I could be more optimistic because this group is going to be very disappointed for the next 3 years with this deal whether slight changes are made or not. Welcome to a mature stagnant airline. 13 year upgrades and much less flexibility with your schedule.

So you resigning yourself to the fact that even though it's a bad deal for you it will pass?

I'm not.

I am one of the people involved in the behind the scenes education campaign. I care so I got involved.

I refuse to sit by while SWA destroys my productivity, my flexibility, and my future.

I see a lot of talk about "hey we're getting a raise." Let me ask you a question. If you make $10/hour and your boss gives you a raise to $12/hour but cuts your hours and your ability to work overtime - did you still get a raise? That exact senario is what this TA does.

Read the CONTRACT, not the executive summary.

Gup

 

[RedDogC130]

Gup are they going to get a product out there soon? I do not want people to make up their minds before it is too late without current info on "our" side of the table

 

[ivauir]

I do not want people to make up their minds before it is too late without current info on "our" side of the table

WHy shouldn't they, you made you mind up before the contract was even on the website ...

 

[BOOZENEWS]

He's still waiting for his arbitration date. He'll be back, though.

With full back pay plus inflation I hope, right??

 

[Orionflyer]

How does the TA change the ability of pilots to work overtime?

That ability is basically a function of our staffing level. If there is too much flying for a given number of pilots, there will be lots of open time. If not enough (i.e. lately), then open time is harder to grab.

This contract changes the way open time is obtained (and does restrict certain elements of ELITT), but if you were a 130 trip/month guy before, that's not gonna change.

The ratio of premium to straight time flying won't change, either, since that is also simply a function of pilot staffing.

What am I missing??

 

[RedDogC130]

With regards to ELITT it will now not allow you to drop/switch the number of trips you may have done before to let you trade with the company or pick up more dense trip with higher TFP. The flex that we once had will be gone..I was a big user of ELITT to trade my crummy line with trips that were better and maybe move weekend flying to the weekday if I had stuff to do....that will all be gone for the most part if it passes..that is a fact based on the company throwing more DTC over more than just 1 weekend a month

 

[fiel12]

the crappy codeshare language alone was enough to persuade me to vote NO.

 

[firstthird]

The ratio of premium to straight time flying won't change, either, since that is also simply a function of pilot staffing.

What am I missing??

Maybe nothing, maybe everything.

The restriction of ELITT, killing of the lance program, and more efficient open time awards combine to make uncovered flying less likely.

when does most of the JA/VJA happen now, on the weekends. why? more uncovered flying.

The TA mandates more reserves (10% vs 8%). The TA neuters the lance program, meaning less sweet turns and two days for guys to pick up, making guys more willing to fly for straight time vs. premium.

I expect that premium open time will go down substantially, but that is just an educated guess. I am not alone in that assessment though.

 

[Orionflyer]

With regards to ELITT:

CONS:

- additional DTC restrictions in the form of 2% on two weekends each month plus the 2 weekends (for the yr) chosen by the company. (as opposed to 1 weekend now).

- restriction to trading down only 4 duty periods (days): similar to the current 65 trip min but yes, more restrictive.

PROS:

- shorter window (57 hr vs 105 hr) to trade before trip

- more seniority in place in that trips that are dropped into open time after MOT (i.e. mil) will now go through some DOT before just being thrown into ELITT for whoever is lucky enough to see it first.

SAME:

- holiday DTC restrictions are the same as they are now.

I'm sure I missed some points. The company wanted the whole thing gone because the migration of crappy, rig-stripped, broken pairings to the weekends is a scheduling and reserve staffing issue. They have a point. It looks like we retained the basic concept with a few more restrictions but with a few improvements.

Is it really so negative that someone should vote no over it??

My previous point remains unchallenged.... our ability to fly open time, both premium and straight, is unchanged by the TA. ELITT might change when you can get your extra 30 trips a month, but you'll still be able to do it.

 

[Orionflyer]

firstthrid

Here's my educated guess:

- Guys will still bid turns and two day lines because they want to clear their board, whether they are lances or just "players" who rely on EF and VJA for killer months. The supply of these schedule fillers will remain unchanged.

- More flying is uncovered on the weekend because of the ELITT trades (which will still happen... just 3 down to 2 % for two weekends and normal limits for the rest) and because people would rather do other things. When the VJ rate is high (weekend or not), it is because the pilots sense the need and because not enough people will do straight time. This won't change... Instead of EF starting at 0900 herb, uncovered stuff will get bid on all day... if no one bids it straight, it'll go to premium bid, then FCFS with premium.

- the higher reserve percentage is not way out of line with previous staffing practice when reserves have been increased for certain periods. I've heard guys on the conference calls arguing that this is bad because it needlessly restricts the company. Either way, there are still a given amount of block hours to fly and a certain number of pilots. With more reserve lines, there's more open time right there (unless they hire more pilots or make denser lines... generally consider good things). The demand for that open time will still be the main determinant of premium pay... that demand is controlled by staffing (right now, too high with more flight cuts in August).

(... the issue of restrictions on Reserve guys picking up with respect to the 100 hr rule is a whole different story....)

 

[GuppyWN]

Orionflyer,

Extra fly is gone. Under the TA you still get to bid with DOT. If the trip is not taken with DOT it will then be placed in a pot in which pilots on the Open Time Alert system will be notified via text. It will be up to you to be on or near a computer all the dang time to actually see the trip because there will be no phone calls describing the trips.

You do have the ability to place a standing bid for uncovered trips. Your selection criteria is only base, seat, am/pm, pay, number of days and overnight city. It does not include legs per day, swaps, ground time or where the trip goes (only the overnight city). Maybe you commute? You won't know if there are deadheads that would allow you to spend an extra night at home and still make the trip downline. There are no phone calls. No option to pass. If the trip meets your criteria you are simply assigned and notified you have a trip on your board.

My problem. What if you wanted to spend the day away from a computer with your family while taking calls from scheduling so you could find out the real story about the trip? You're only option is to take a trip you don't really know much about or pass. I will pass. So will many others. Why do you think reserves are up to 10%?

This will reduce your flexibility and your ability to pick up decent trips.

Read the contract for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Hope this helps,
Gup

 

[Orionflyer]

Gup

You are correct, EF as we know it is gone. I think you are right to be concerned that the proposed OTA system has the potential to be less than adequate. But consider....

- all pairings that come up after 0831 herb (meaning no need to recheck DOT at 0859) will migrate into the later DOT/POT closings AND into the new OTA. That is the key. Throughout the day prior to the pairing, instead of some scheduling new hire calling a hundred names, the pairing will be posted for a later bid and e-mailed/texted to all who have requested to be notified. If you are somewhere "on the grid", you'll get a chance to bid the trip (either straight or premium, if you're picky and bold) and wait until that DOT close to see who got it. And, of course, you still have the option to just pass. The FCFS system for same day short notice stuff is more like the old EF but again with just the message and no seniority bidding... fastest finger wins.

- Now you raise a very valid concern about the quality and content of the OTA message. The TA spells out the trip criteria you cite, but uses the word "minimum". There is nothing to prevent more info being included in the message. In fact, given that the technical hurdles all lie in coordinating the scheduling computers with some notification technology, I submit that it won't be long before every trip detail (legs, DHs, everything you see in cwa) will be included in the OTA message. The company doesn't want to play "I've got a secret" with open time.

Yes, everyone's "cheese is being moved" but once we insist (and we will) that the entire trip be in the OTA message, this will be great. Don't you hate getting the EF call and having 30 seconds to decide? Now you get the message, think about it, then reply with a straight or premium bid. I actually think it sounds much better. Don't let the fact that much of this was done to reduce the burden on scheduling stand in the way of accepting a change/improvement.

Regarding reserves, if the company had it's wish, reserves would be back at 8% if not lower. They are not raising it because they expect us to stop taking extra trips. We asked for the higher number to reduce JAs and maybe increase hiring, but if this has the unintended consequence of reducing open time (thru higher staffing) then we should revisit and go back to 8 via side letter. This could go a lot of ways depending on our ASMs and hiring so it's hard to cover every possibility.


Remember all.... this company thrives on pilots flying extra and picking up lots of open time. It is not in their interest to reduce this option. I submit that the proposed DOT/OTA system only improves the process with gains for both pilots and the less burdened schedulers. The only reduction in flexibility that I see is in ELITT where we gave up some flex with no real gain. But this has always been a side letter issue that the company could have terminated at any time. They are just trying to get back a little sanity one one more weekend a month. Putting it in the contract at all could be considered a gain since now they can't unilaterally terminate it.


Open Time = Block hours / pilots

This simple formula has not changed.

 

[Daddy]

Orion,
The 130 per month guys are gone when this thing gets signed. The flexibility of ELITT and our current system is what allows that kind of productivity. Once we concede all this flexibility, we will have to negotiate it back in lieu of raises next time around. We are presently overstaffed and the company just wants people flying their line right now. When we grow again, they will let us negotiate this productivity back. We are being played for suckers and it will probably work. ELITT will be locked up with DTC for 2 weekends every month, plus 2 more weekends every year plus more holidays than before (read TA not exec summary for that). Why would anyone clear their board now if there is no real lancing, no real migration of flying off the weekends, and 10% reserves to staff it all...that is a 25% increase by the way. I have been a habitual ELITTer from the start and we lost big when we agreed to do to DTC in the first place and we will lose big now. If you are a 130 TFP per month guy, please reconsider voting yes as you will lose more money than you can imagine.

 

[RedDogC130]

It is the guys with the AD mil retirement that we have to worry about voting yes because they do not want to rock the boat and mess up their retirement gig and mostly have no clue what is going on with this stuff and are still voting because they think the company will "take care" of them...I actualy had a guy say he was willing to take a zero COLA if the company asked....I was in shock....We did not speak too much the rest of the trip after that discussion.

This is all just from personal experience talking with some of them if I was in their shoes maybe I would feel the same but I am not so I don't...not all are like that I know

 

[fiel12]

My last two trips were with retired AF guys, and they were both going to vote no. So I guess there's a little ray of hope. BTW, codeshare was the big issue for them.

 

[pilotyip]

What to do?

So the company is under econ pressure, they have a number of options available to reduce costs. They have already made tremendous strides in reducing non-flight employees per airplane. Now they have to address the flight crews. It looks like they are trying to preserve flight crew jobs by reducing how much each pilot works and gets paid. Is there possibility that if this TA is rejected, the other option comes into play, and that would be layoffs. With the lay offs a majority of the pilots could keep what they have now by sacrificing the junior flight crew.

 

[RedDogC130]

So the company is under econ pressure, they have a number of options available to reduce costs. They have already made tremendous strides in reducing non-flight employees per airplane. Now they have to address the flight crews. It looks like they are trying to preserve flight crew jobs by reducing how much each pilot works and gets paid. Is there possibility that if this TA is rejected, the other option comes into play, and that would be layoffs. With the lay offs a majority of the pilots could keep what they have now by sacrificing the junior flight crew.

I do not buy that excuse at the present time. When the company is still selling seats at $49...it can't be too bad.

 

[Orionflyer]

Daddy

The 130 per month guys are what makes this company work. Why do you think the company wants to kill that? You said "the company just wants people flying their line now". They'd have to hire 1000 guys if we all did that! The company will NEVER negotiate anything that reduces productivity, no matter the current environment or staffing levels.

Pilotyip - I agree that they are doing their best to avoid furloughs of pilots for culture and cost reasons, but there is no way they are negotiating reductions in productivity to keep everyone around.

Again, you 130 per month guys are going to be fine. The ONLY thing that can reduce that is overmanning (i.e. lower ASMs or too much hiring).

If the 130 per month guys become 90 per month, who exactly is going do that flying??? It's not the reserves, they are back to pretty high usage (for FOs) if you look at the boards I've seen. The senior guys who tried bidding reserve to avoid work are bailing back into lines.

OT = ASM / pilots !!!!! OrionFlyer's law (ha!)

 

[pilotyip]

they have too

I do not buy that excuse at the present time. When the company is still selling seats at $49...it can't be too bad.

When I buy tickets, I can beat SWA seat prices on a number of airlines right now. The $49 does not seem to be available when I want to travel or where I am going. SWA load factors are lower than other airlines, they have to sell at that price to keep LF where they are.