SWA pilot turns down FedEx? Tell me more...

[Uppercrust]

Pinnacle would base him out of MEM.

Quicker upgrade there too. Another touch choice. He probably didn't picked up there.:laugh: :laugh:

 

[AlbieF15]

Rez,

Bottom line is this guy doesn't owe another pilot anything. If a guy beats you out in quals, connections, or pure luck...its tough. However, that doesn't mean he should sandbag his choices to help anyone else. He busted his chops to get hired by both companies, and the choice is his to make.

And I seriously doubt KD or JL really give a rat's @ss what this guy does either. They'll put someone else into that slot in a heartbeat.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Bottom line is this guy doesn't owe another pilot anything. If a guy beats you out in quals, connections, or pure luck...its tough. However, that doesn't mean he should sandbag his choices to help anyone else. He busted his chops to get hired by both companies, and the choice is his to make..

agreed... however that is not the point..... All companies have the right to hire who they want and create thier own criteria....

And applicants can use whatever criteria they want. Engine type. Commute. Yearly humidity averages in potential domiciles...whatever....

The point.... don't negatively influence hiring policy making it more difficult for the next guy.... (like the furloughed legacy guys...)

And I seriously doubt KD or JL really give a rat's @ss what this guy does either. They'll put someone else into that slot in a heartbeat.

Yet the June 06 email indicates otherwise....

 

[Sluggo_63]

Rez,

Bottom line is this guy doesn't owe another pilot anything.

Albie (I can't believe I'm disagreeing with you...)

He may not owe any other applicant/poolie anything, but I think he owes his sponsor the consideration to turn this off earlier in the process. How long had the rumor of new-hires being based in Anchorage been floating around before it became reality? He had to have known that it was a definite possibility. He should have discussed it with his sponsor and planned for it. To turn it down at the phone call stage was poor form, I think.

 

[satpak77]

how about

I knew a guy who owned Chevies his whole life, but this year bought a Ford.

Wanted to ask the board

1) Is this because Ford offers a better product this year?

2) Does driving a Ford make him happier?

3) Is GM/Chevy corporation headed downhill? Is this customer a sign of "times to come?"

etc etc blah blah blah

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Your explanation of his reasoning seems short sighted.

We all keep refusing to look at this from KD/JL's prespective.....

There are plenty of guys that would love to come to FedEx with out the conditionals..... So why should KD/JL have to deal with it..... The fact is FX is the one of the hottest chicks on the block that many want to date... Until that changes.... They get to pick an choose...

Where is the responsibility to your fellow pilots? Why muck it up and create another hoop to jump thru for the guys trying to get on behind you...

I don't get it..... is this all about "me me me"?

Hagar,

Thanks for the insight.


Rez,


This is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. The hiring department wants all the power but they simply don't have it. And they know it.

Part of the interview process is selling the company to the interviewee. The tiresome 'tradition' of having to go thru a complex hiring process is partly meant to make the interviewee feel special and chosen. Contrary to your assumption not every good pilot candidate gets to his or her dream job with the best timing. Then it becomes a choice to leave a good, maybe very good, job for a truly great job. Hiring knows this. Its a tough decision, I'm sure.

The company wants the applicant to walk away from the interview motivated to accept a position. Motivated enough to leave another job to go back on PROBATION and start again at the bottom. To be the last person on the seniority list and the most vulnerable to industry changes. To accept how many peers have been there for years and many new friends who are younger will be there years after he/she retires. A big risk even if the job is more stable in the long term. But short term matters too.



I probably am not telling you anything you don't already know.

But the above is really not my point. I think this hiring thing is all about 'Me'. Both hiring and applicant alike. The hiring department is pulling out all their tricks to get lifers. Applicants are primping and preening to be chosen.

I think there is an ethical way to treat employers yet still leave them after landing a "career" job. In all my interviews I have never been asked if I intended to make the job a long term career. No promise is ever asked of us. It is the burden of the company to encourage us to be lifers and our opportunity to make it a life long job if that is what we want.

This is America. Job mobility is not just the right of the upper middle class or the rich and powerful. To give that right up is not fair to all Americans, not just the other pilots who want to be at FedEx.

If this system of hiring breaks down enough, it may even change into something more coherent and relevant.

 

[AlbieF15]

I'm not defending HOW he went about turning down the slot. When I turned down Jetblue, I did about 3 weeks before my class, and I sent Dean Melonas an email expressing my regrets, explaining my decision, and requesting a chance to talk to him on the phone about my choice. He was courteous enough to call me and I had the chance to thank him for the opporunity over the phone, as well as share what a tough choice it had been.

However, when I made the call, I was NOT thinking "geez...if I don't go to class all my F-15 buddies from Tyndall are going to get screwed..." While I certainly like most of those guys, they didn't get a CFI at 20, teach CRM, or do a host of other things that I had done to make myself more marketable to the airlines. The choice between FedEx and Jetblue was MINE, and mine exclusively. If I heard another Eagle guy saying "well geez, Albie...now its harder for ME to get hired..." I would have reminded him he wasn't there when I was doing EVERYTHING I could to make myself marketable. Everybody loves you once you are on at a major--its the guys who were there before that who are your real friends.

In air to air combat, there is a winner and loser. There are no ties. Second place means you are dead. So, I am proud to be part of a great squadron. However, when we fight, we fight FULL UP to bring out the best in each other. I expect no quarter. By the same token, sandbagging my own career so another pilot (who honestly...probably doesn't really give a $hit about me deep down anyway...) might one day get a job at my carrier strikes me as assinine. However, bitterly sitting on the sidelines unable to get hired and complaining about someone who did but turned it down sounds like sour grapes.

As for sponsorship--there are two schools of thought. First is A) I won't sponsor you unless you REALLY mean it and want to work here. I don't want to waste a silver bullet if you REALLY don't want to be here. I've met a lot of SWA guys who subscribe to this method, as well as some guys at FedEx. The second is B) I want YOU to get whatever you want that makes you happy, and it that happens to be at my company--cool! I'll help you all I can. However, should you decide MY company isn't right for you...follow your own heart. I don't care--go make you and your family happy.

If you expect to have a rotary launcher of sponsorship silver bullets, obviously you don't want your sponsoree to burn you by turning down your company. Rez--I think this is where you are going. I have no problem with this line of thought--as long as you as the sponsor are perfectly clear about what you expect from your sponsoree.

For me--I've sponsored ONE guy at FedEx. I gave him the same spiel I outlined in B....I'll do all I can to get you hired at FedEx, but ultimately its up to you where you decide to go for your life. You are my friend regardless, and make your choice without ANY reservations about the impact on ability to sponsor anyone eles. In other words, this silver bullet is 100% yours... My sponsoree got hired by SWA and by FDX, and he went with FDX. I think his SWA sponsor was a bit disappointed and embarrassed, just like the FDX sponsor was in the example that started this thread.

Again--to summarize... Be classy. Be honest. But look out for your own family affairs...you don't owe anyone else anything but your best effort.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not defending HOW he went about turning down the slot. When I turned down Jetblue, I did about 3 weeks before my class, and I sent Dean Melonas an email expressing my regrets, explaining my decision, and requesting a chance to talk to him on the phone about my choice. He was courteous enough to call me and I had the chance to thank him for the opporunity over the phone, as well as share what a tough choice it had been.

Impressive.... honest and classy. And this is what I am advocating the LUV guy should've done. Am I missing something? Did he not hit a nerve with KD/JL?

However, when I made the call, I was NOT thinking "geez...if I don't go to class all my F-15 buddies from Tyndall are going to get screwed...".

Or course not... companies realize that not all offers will be accepted. But you turned down JB with respect to Dean M and his company. Big difference. The LUV guy did not. Why is it you can be honest and classy?

In air to air combat, there is a winner and loser. There are no ties. Second place means you are dead. So, I am proud to be part of a great squadron. However, when we fight, we fight FULL UP to bring out the best in each other. I expect no quarter. By the same token, sandbagging my own career so another pilot (who honestly...probably doesn't really give a $hit about me deep down anyway...) might one day get a job at my carrier strikes me as assinine. However, bitterly sitting on the sidelines unable to get hired and complaining about someone who did but turned it down sounds like sour grapes.

First of all this is not ACM and no one dies from competitive airline interviews.

Who is complaining about not getting hired? I'm certianly not. I just want the same interview process you and he got, without extra steps because some guy pissed off KD/JL. For example, the Legacy guys have to jump thru more hoops because of other legacy guys that pissed off FedEx.

No one is saying sandbag your own career. But it seems one can politley decline a job offer, look out for his family and not create a bad impression. Just like you did.

BTW..can you MIL guys relate to the rest of the world without a tactical "There I was" perspective?
:beer:

As for sponsorship--there are two schools of thought. First is A) I won't sponsor you unless you REALLY mean it and want to work here. I don't want to waste a silver bullet if you REALLY don't want to be here. I've met a lot of SWA guys who subscribe to this method, as well as some guys at FedEx. The second is B) I want YOU to get whatever you want that makes you happy, and it that happens to be at my company--cool! I'll help you all I can. However, should you decide MY company isn't right for you...follow your own heart. I don't care--go make you and your family happy.

B works, but is there a concern that the company will weaken ones creditibilty if one sponsers multiple guys that turn down employment offers?

If you expect to have a rotary launcher of sponsorship silver bullets, obviously you don't want your sponsoree to burn you by turning down your company. Rez--I think this is where you are going. I have no problem with this line of thought--as long as you as the sponsor are perfectly clear about what you expect from your sponsoree.

Nope... that is not where I am going. Where I am going is how you handled JB... a Win/Win/Win. Multiple job offers/family-self number one priority/didn't muck it up for the other guys.

I think his SWA sponsor was a bit disappointed and embarrassed, just like the FDX sponsor was in the example that started this thread.

Yup... and guys like you have the skill set to to do it all including not embarrassing your sponser and offending the HR Dept. And that is very cool and that is all I am advocating...

Again--to summarize... Be classy. Be honest. But look out for your own family affairs...you don't owe anyone else anything but your best effort.

Agreed...... just don't be a bull in a china shop...i.e. get what you want and leave the place a mess for the guys coming in.

If we all want the ability to get multiple job offers and pick and choose which one is best for our family then we need to be classy and honest. Look, these HR depts can take it to the next level and set it up so that they will only look at you if you aren't looking at other airlines.

One more question on the application.

Are you seeking employment elsewhere?

​

Many guys, like you Albie, have the abiltiy to get multiple offers and the reason why is becuase the guys before you (and you, yourself) didn't mess it up.

 

[AlbieF15]

BTW..can you MIL guys relate to the rest of the world without a tactical "There I was" perspective?
:beer:

Not usually. Even those of us with some civilian background eventually become assimilated into the fold and become social retards. There are many places we can no longer go in public







One more question on the application.

Are you seeking employment elsewhere?



You bet. I want to be an AIRLINE pilot. I want to be at (insert airline here) more than anywhere else. However, knowing how competitive the process really is, I have applied to many different places. I do have a family to support!




​

Many guys, like you Albie, have the abiltiy to get multiple offers and the reason why is becuase the guys before you (and you, yourself) didn't mess it up.[/quote]

I was blessed--no doubt! However, I busted my butt for years to keep my civilian tickets up, do some "outside the box" jobs like aerospace physiology and CRM instructor, and I chose assignments based on FLYING not on career progression in the AF. I work with plenty of sharp candidates from both military and regional airlines who end up with multiple offers. I know sometimes it looks like the "rich get richer...", but many times its a combo of luck, networking, and a lot of quals. I also know that having another interview/offer takes a LOT of pressure off each individual interview, so in my experience a guy with mutliple interviews often does better in EACH of them since all his or her eggs aren't in one basket.

Again--your points on being a gentleman are all valid. I think we are 75-90% in agreement. However, despite the JL email exerpt you've seen, I don't think one guy turning down FDX at the last moment is going to affect hiring one bit. There are plenty of former NWA, DAL, AA, and UAL guys here now, and the former guys returning to their previous carriers appears to be water under the bridge. For every RULE we see in an email or FCIF, somebody knows someone on the property who was an exception. Don't stress if you are at carrier X and some guy shows up at our company and turns into a jerk--I still think by in large you'll get looked at based on your own merits. You may have a few tough questions to answer in your meet and greet, but with a little thought you'll know the right answers.

 

[Uppercrust]

However, I busted my butt for years to keep my civilian tickets up, do some "outside the box" jobs like aerospace physiology and CRM instructor, and I chose assignments based on FLYING not on career progression in the AF.

Quitter!!!!:laugh: :laugh: