Swa Pft

[Crizz]

Let me preface this by aknowledging the fact that I will be bombarded by people with one track minds about how I am a dummy head, and I post knowing that full well.

::: Deep Breath :::


Why isnt the requirement to purchase a 737 type rating by SWA looked at as pay for training?

 

[scoreboard]

I'm not paying the future employer...

 

[Lonestar]

As far as I know, there is no requirement to purchase a 737 type rating...just to have one. That and 1000 turbine PIC, 2500 TT and the ATP.

 

[chase]

Crizz

I do consider it paying for some training. Being ex-military I guess I never gave it a second thought as having any "negative" connotations...I still don't.

I paid for the following, ATP, ATP written, FE written, college education, etc. All of these things are items required for the job (actually not the college degree but it did help I believe).

The debate will rage on but it isn't one I will join in. I will agree 100% it is as you stated & see nothing wrong with it. It helped me get the job & quite frankly, that's the bottom line.

To those who find this as being unethical or unprofessional, sorry don't see it that way. Biases/prejudices are usually behaviors/thought patterns that are introduced to persons by those who wish to promote a particular agenda/direction of thought. Since I was not exposed to either side of the argument, I drew my own conclusions about a 737 type & viewed it strictly from my own personal standpoint & with no preconceived ideas/thoughts about it ahead of time.

Don't let a message board, FBO flight room chatter or anyone else over-ride the greatest gift you have....common sense. If you have come to the conclusion you shouldn't do it...then don't....if you have come to the conclusion it is OK, then do it....we're not talking illegal drugs, some great moral behavior issue. Don't make it into something too big, there are those who love the fight to fillibuster & to make a point.....run from those (& me) & get on with your life & enjoy the greatest career in the world....flying! cheers, happy easter

 

[350DRIVER]

Why isnt the requirement to purchase a 737 type rating by SWA looked at as pay for training?

Fortunately they are the only airline that requires this present day, pretty much is PFT. I guess some will say though that if you put lipstick on a pig it then becomes pretty so sure many will try and justify this.. You are "required" to have thus buying the type prior to showing up on property for day 1 of ground school. I could not imagine at 5000TT the need to go "buy" the type to go work there, pretty much is a slap in the face.


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[typhoonpilot]

I agree that it is a form of pay for training. That is a big reason I didn't apply to Southwest a long time ago. I waited until I could get a 737 type for free. I also didn't apply to Valuejet in the beginning because, even though I already had a DC-9 type, they wanted over $9000 for the privilege of being hired there.

Looking back it would have been wiser to buy a 737 type in the early 90s and try for Southwest. As Chase pointed out, we paid for our college education and all the other ratings in order to be competitive. If Southwest is truly your goal then paying for the type is probably the way to go. If you can get it for free then all the better.

Just in terms of semantics Southwest doesn't require you to pay for a type, they just require you to have a type.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Falconjet]

Rerun

Crizz: This is a copy of a post I made on the same topic a couple of weeks ago. My opinion hasn't changed, so rather than re-typing it I just cut and pasted. For what its worth:

Pay for Training

Your question is certainly valid, and I can only offer my opinion. I'm not completely up to speed on what pay for training is, but the way I understand pay for training you actually pay for your initial training in order to secure a job. You pay for the training so the company doesn't have to.

Another hook might be a training contract, where you repay the company the cost (or a portion of the cost) of the training if you leave within certain time frame (ala ATA). Do you consider a training contract pay for training? I don't think so, but some might.

The 737 type rating, on the other hand, is simply a minimum requirement for employment at SW just like an FAA medical and ATP rating. You have to have them in order to be considered for employment there as a pilot.

SW doesn't train you less because you have the type, they still have to put you through their FAA certified training program in order for you to fly their jets their way.

Having an ATP is the FAA's way to make sure you have demonstrated the skills to fly as PIC, the 737 type is SW's way of making sure (in addition to the ATP) that you have demonstrated the skills necessary to fly the 737 as a future PIC for them.

You don't pay any of your training costs while at SW, they do. They don't save any money because you already have a type (in terms of initial training).

As Canyonblue mentioned, you could have acquired the 737 type while flying for another carrier, the military, or perhaps courtesy of some other rich uncle (other than Sam).

Its a requirement for employment, not a shortcut for the company to get you to the line, therefor I don't see it in any way as a pay for training situation.

Most of the majors used to require the FE written exam when they still operated 727s, and I don't think anybody considered that a pay for training situation either. FedEx still requires the FE written as a basic requirement for employment and you don't hear anybody complaining about that. Sure, the cost is much less (in both time and $) but the analogy is still valid.

Sure, a lot of folks go out and buy the type rating specifically to become eligible for employment with SW (I sure did), just as EVERYBODY goes out and pays for their ATP, Class I, and RTOP. You've got to invest something to make it to the show, and if the show means SW to you, then the type is just another step along the way.

I personally got the type specifically for the chance to fly for SW and although I may never do so, I still feel that I gained alot from the experience and it helped me make the transition from flying a small french jet for the CG to flying a pax jet in the 121 environment. There were other benefits for me other than just meeting the mins for SW, although that was MY primary reason.

Just one man's opinions.

FJ

 

[NEDude]

To summarize:

True PFT:

1) You pay your employer a fee for new-hire training costs.

2) You are not guarenteed a job if you pay the fee, only if you pass the training. You could pay and fail.

3) You do not get an additional FAA rating or certificate for the training. What you pay for is absolutely worthless outside of the specific company you are training for.


At SWA;

1) You do not pay SWA a penny for the training. You may even be lucky enough to not have to pay anything for the 737 type.

2) They will offer you the job before you get a 737 type.

3) You receive a 737 type rating that you can carry with you forever, no matter where you go.

4) You could land a job a a great paying (second higest 737 pay behind Delta) company that has never furloughed and continued to make money even during the worst slump in the history of the industry.


In my own personal opinion, if you are going to call SWA PFT, call all airlines PFT because none of them train you from day one. All SWA requires is an additional FAA issued rating.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Chase

Excellent response, dude.

'nough said.

 

[Trojan]

Not that I agree or disagree, but I take particular disgust to the concept that putting the word "true" in front of another word makes it the truth, makes it law, makes it scripture, etc.
Don't tell me what is true, I'll make up my own mind. Have the courage and intelligence and tell it like it is, it's YOUR opinion, and be proud enough of it to say so.

Like Chase said, you'll pay for stuff your whole life, so don't let others pontificate you into their beliefs. You're the one that has to live with yourself, so do what you believe is right.

T

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

SWA is the 800 lb. gorilla. They could ask pilots to get circumsized and many would do it.

Before you get mad, I'm just saying many would go into debt or worse for a job at SWA. Is that bad, I don't think so. Getting an advantage over your fellow applicants is important. If you don't so then you will be playing craps everytime you interview.

Business in America is about getting a competitive advantage and exploiting it. For SWA it is actually easier to get an advantage than elsewhere. Many jobs only hire thru personal contacts. At Delta or FedEx the advantage is being a military pilot. That is a much bigger expense (life changing experience) than a 737 type.

Life is PFT.

 

[350DRIVER]

SWA is the 800 lb. gorilla. They could ask pilots to get circumsized and many would do it.

But.... there are a few of us in the industry that possess just a tad bit of "class" and self respect and would avoid SWA at all costs. Just compare this pilot group with the pilots from other carriers, big big difference.



There is a reason why SWA is the only airline requiring this and that is not going to change anytime soon.


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[hopeful]

Just compare this pilot group with the pilots from other carriers, big big difference.

Your right about that. Thats why they don't hire many America West guys.

 

[rangridr]

Obviously, there are many ways of looking at this issue and I agree with Chase you have to use your own commense sense.

As for me, I'm looking at the long term. I took the chance of getting the type in hopes of getting hired at SWA...if I don't get hired, I feel like I walked away gaining better knowlege of a plane I have never flown and having a great experience with the people at HPA, as well as gaining the type to add on my resume. I have to admit I was fortunate enough to use the G.I. Bill to cover some of my costs.

Also, I try to look at things from the business side...which afterall is what SWA and the other carriers are in...they have to make money foremost to survive. And how do you do that? You have to watch your costs. Well, I did pay for that type and if I get hired, I will hopefully be saving my future employer (SWA) extra insurance costs and perhaps extra training costs. And, my attitude is that I and SWA will reap the rewards down the road when they are still in business hopefully some thirty plus years later when I'm wondering if they will be around to take care of my pension.

SWA is about spirit and family...everyone gives to the company likes its family to make things work and in the end the family is there to take care of you when you need them. In other words, it's my sacrifice now.....but the SWA family will provide more than the cost of the type 30 some years down the road to me.

Just my two cents.

Rangridr

 

[bafanguy]

Maybe someone can explain when/why SWA turned from providing ratings to requiring them for emplyoment. The original pilots in 1971 did NOT buy their ratings but were sent to UAL on SWA's dime. Fact !!

 

[johnnyV]

After 22+ years of military service with solid job security, I am super apprehensive about making the transition to civilian life. I am more than willing to pay for the opportunity to work for a super stable company with job security, good quality of life, & good overall benefits.

That's just me.

JV

 

[CatYaaak]

4000 lemmings can't be wrong!

In 99% of the aviation world, having a type rating without time-in-type is barely worth the ink it's printed with on your certificate. Sure, you don't pay SWA for the rating directly, and yes technically, you can "take it anywhwere".....just don't fool yourself into believing that you can "take it anywhere" and actually get a job somewhere other than SWA with it.

So for practical purposes as an indicator of experience, the requirement for only a type rating boils down to it being a "SWA Loyalty Test". Their management knows full-well most of their applicants run out to buy one in order to get the job, and they love this kind of....um...(to say it nicely).....dedication. They don't care who you get it from, because its merely a litmus test; "We know we could train you, but we want to see you ponying up some $$$ somewhere to PROVE you LUV us!"

Southwest isn't alone, however. Other cults usually have some similar rite of passage, and the indoctrinated wear the same goofy smiles. Say, if you retire from SW, do they provide some kind of de-programing therapy?

 

[wil]

Catyaak is dead on. All these koolaid drinkers will be singing a different tune in 5 years. The other shoe is dangling at SWA and you can only keep your cowboy style operations under the rug for so long. Mark my words. But, cheers!

Johnny- Congratulations for getting off the Government teet!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Com'n wil....Tell why you think the other shoe is dangling. I'm reading alot of innuendo about SWA lately but without anything to go on I can't take it seriously. BTW, telling me to take it seriously won't help. Please post your reasoning.

Without more I can only assume its a gut feeling of yours.

 

[Capt. Haddock]

Have often wondered about the various definitions of PFT.
NEDude gave one for “True PFT” above. Do we have an accepted definition of PFT? Not debating NEDude’s or other views on this topic...