SWA letters of "Thanks but no thanks, see ya next year.

[:-)]

I agree this thread needs to end, but what the heck. Calvin, I don't know who, how or why the questions that are asked are asked. Maybe Albie can answer that one. My point was that the PD collects the initial information and supports the pilots who make the final decission.

You just made my point. Most SWA pilots DON'T really know how the process works. They only think they know. Yet, you guys come on here and tell us how it is. I'm glad that you (not you specifically OffHot) got hired. I'm proud for you, as I know that you're proud of your accomplishment. Just please stop trying to tell us that your hiring process is just a simple "aw shucks, all smiles" process. Tain't so.

 

[cipolini]

Ok, since I previously had a vested interest in how the decisions are made in the pilot hiring arena (the BF interviewed, references were called, got the dreaded letter), I will chime in and hopefully this thread will die. When the references were called, I knew that was a good sign, then the folks that you interviewed with liked you. The final decision is made by the folks at the decision board, not the PD. I was told that all applicants references called or not go to the DB. Not sure if they flip coins, throw darts or what. Makes no sense to me and I work here. The BF is wearing brown and hauling boxes.

BTW, in the early 90's folks paid $10K for the type and weren't getting hired. If you don't want to get the type or like the hiring process just go somewhere else. There are other fine airlines out there that are hiring.

 

[chase]

Dear Calvin,

I saw your questions & will provide my paltry insight which is greatly overrated. Here are my thoughts:

Are you telling me that a pilot decided upon the TMAAT format and wrote the questions?

The process was changed many years ago from a simple interview with the CP after being recommended by a fellow SWA pilot to the "interview" process where TMAAT questions & other HR type questions are answered. I assume "pilots" do what most good pilots do, we took what was working somewhere else, modified it & called it "the interview process". The latest modification came in early '04 when the LOI was inputed...this came from recommendations from a team of pilots who saw the benefits on what Fedex was doing with their applicants.

If so, was/is that pilot either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

Did you ever meet a pilot who didn't think he could solve the world's problem? However, none were probably licensed in the state of Texas to practice as a psychologist I'm sure

Why did that pilot choose aviation subjects (I admit to having slightly old info, please fell free to correct me and state the nature of the current question bank) instead of general TMAAT questions?

Sorry, don't know...I would assume "aviation subjets" has something to do with hearing about their flying experiences since they are being interviewed for a flying position, again supposition on my part, as stated, don't know definitively.

Are the interviewers properly trained mental health professionals?

It's a little scary to think of putting two terms, "pilots" & "trained mental health professional" in the same sentence. I would say the answer is clearly no. Interviewers are chosen by a team of management folks after an interview process of their own. I generally believe the team of interviewers do a great job of doing what is one of the most difficult jobs out there. Are they perfect? No but neither am I so I'll let it go from there.

Even more to the point, can the TMAAT/personality type/behavioral interview be adeqautely administered by anyone less than a trained mental health professional?

SWA has been doing interviews this way for some time. For those who are hired I would believe the answer to them would be yes. To those who aren't I would assume they might have a different answer. If you wish for me to say our system is perfect and that every great match for SWA was always hired I would have to decline saying that. After all they're humans and spending thousands of dollars to have "trained" mental health professionals interviewing pilots...well that is a little scary and expensive.

If not, how are the SWA pilot interviewers actually trained?

Don't know but I trust the folks who are doing it.

Is the interviewer allowed to make whatever comment she/he chooses on the eval form, or do they have to follow the format of the "system"? That is, can the interviewer skip the S/A/R form and just write his evaluation of the applicants personality type? Who wrote the eval form?

Don't know for certainity but I would think that is the purpose of the evaluation form, to make comments. Now do they talk about the candidates parents, religion, sexual preference, etc, probably not but I would hope they provide some notes that to the DB makes sense as to why they either are recommending the individual or not....again I have no first hand knowledge so I'm making a complete assumption.

I spoke to an FA not too long ago who had worked here for 4 years....she had applied to SWA 12 times over a 15 year period before she got hired. She was fortunate to be invited to a meeting with Colleen & when told of this young girl's story Colleen said to her, "What were we thinking..why did it take us so long to hire someone like you?"....even the President of the company realizes great folks are turned down by SWA all the time. It certainly isn't a value judgment or statement about one's character, professionalism or airmanship if one is turned by SWA....we have persons who slip through the cracks(some who may appear on here or claim to be at SWA) and are hired while there are some who don't...every organization does.

Please explain this, "The PD are the administrators of the process".
Does this mean that they present all of the applicants to the DB?, or do they have the ability to eliminate some applicants before their package reaches the DB?

I didn't make that statement but in fact the PD do "adminster" process...those great folks handle all the paperwork, attend the job fairs, answer the questions, work the website issues, etc. They collect all the materials so that when the "interview" does occur with the applicants, the pilots simply walk in & everything they need to conduct the interview is there....I would view it as "staff work" something pilots generally hate. Their inputs in terms of indivduals certainly comes into play when the interview occurs. I'm very glad they are there because as some folks have referenced in previous posts SWA pilots must deal with other employee groups, customers, many other non-pilot types & how they interact with the PD folks can bring out a different side to an individual...."does the applicant come across differently to pilot types vs. non-pilot types" I think (I would think you would also) be a valid issue & what other way to get this perspective than to have a non-pilot type there doing interviews. Put as someone also said ANYONE in the company can have an input to the hiring of someone based upon their own interaction with that individual from the time they enter the airport or before.

Is they can eliminate applicants before the DB, then they must have more than an administrative role in the process. If they can't eliminate someone i.e., if they present all interviewees to the DB, then what does the PD actually accomplish?

I would disagree with your premise..."they", the PD don't eliminate folks...what the candidate does before, during & after the interview is what determines who is hired, not the PD or the interview team...the PD folks are one variable (in my opinion) to the overall assessment, the other interviewers, the LOI folks, the results of the LOI, background checks, letters of references, etc....& in my opinion the PD do accomplish an awful lot in making applicants more comfortable in coming to SWA for an interview. They have a tough job & do it extremely well....I'm sure you'd agree.

I'm not trying to demean anyone in the PD, I only wish that my employer had a PD instead of an HR department, I'm just trying to get a handle on the system.

I'm not taking your comments negatively, you've done something that many others only dream about...you've chased after a dream & are now interested in getting some answers...I've probably not done very much toward helping you achieve that though, my apologies. However, I would ask you this though: "would it make a difference" if I had all the answers to your questions? Would someone interact with the interviewers differently knowing the answers? I know most folks who are turned down search, scrap & claw for some sort of explanation of "why"....if we fail a checkride, we're told why...we get stopped by the policeman, we're told why....we even get ATC to explain to us sometimes why we get the crazy directions we get but we come to a job interview & get turned down & get nothing? Very frustrating....so noted....but the clues aren't found in any answers to these questions or others in my opinion. It doesn't make it wrong to ask them, to vent, to shower emotions toward SWA or toward the process. I'm just thankful you applied to SWA & hope you and the many others who have tried will again. I have many thoughts on the subject & have read the thread with interest....it is carthatic for those who have tried & were turned down....to each of you my thanks for applying & I hope you will again. To those who wish to never lay eyes on SWA again & are angry at SWA, I can understand that & wish you nothing but success in your career.....you're contributions somewhere else will be just as rewarding I'm sure.


Again these are the ramblings of an individual who has never been behind the curtain but know many of these folks who are working hard to get good folks to SWA....I applaud their efforts & to those who have tried & continue to do so. It isn't a perfect system, we all know it....I would disagree that our process is getting to be a lot like UAL/DAL/etc....I'm not famliar with their systems but having heard enough about how their's occurred I think for those who have been both the tone of the interview is significantly different but I could (& have been) wrong.

To those who have been fortunate enough to be hired please be humble & thank those who helped you get here...we all can use a helping hand at times. Thanks again for applying Calvin & contributing on the forum. Cheers

 

[Jetjockey]

Great post as always Chase. You are a class act.

 

[learflyer]

The venting I see here is perfectly natural, and I have done it too. Whenever my wife enters a beauty contest (about every 2 years on average) I want to go out and kick all the judges a$$es when she doesn't win. She is obviously the prettiest, smartest, and most complete woman on the stage. I'm not mad at the other contestants, but the JUDGES who obviously missed the point. However, my wife reminds me that she LIKES doing these things, and that on any given day each of the 5 judges will pick a different winner. In a contest like that, only 1 can win. She enters for the thrill of competition and the motivation it provides to be fit, dress well, and maintain a positive spirit. Despite the sterotypes of catty women, she has met a lot of very successful women in the circuits and many have become some of her closest friends.

Although the odds are better in a SWA interview, we seem to be seeing that opportunities when you quit breathing.

Albie, this paragraph sums up the whole point of this thread. it is a GD beauty contest, and the guys are fed up with it.

 

[Jmajoris]

The SWA interview process is begining to feel and look like UAL's back in the heyday...

I guess they want to see how bad u want the job. U where not good enough the first round, but maybe one year of "learning" how to "ACT" and BS better and Ki$$ A$$ you will get the job.

I hate these games. DO NOT INTERVIEW PEOPLE, if u are not going to hire them. I am sure u guys had plenty of time and recs. I am also sure u guys where good pilots . U had your type too. I dont get what a year is going to do.


Good Luck\
Cya

But that's what an interview is for! How else can any employer confirm that you fit into their corp culture if you do not meet with them?

And isn't the interview experience important for you to grow as a pilot?

 

[miles otoole]

But that's what an interview is for! How else can any employer confirm that you fit into their corp culture if you do not meet with them?

And isn't the interview experience important for you to grow as a pilot?

no sh1t. BBBBBBUtttt, I have 4000 hours and paid for a type. If you really want to work here, you'll keep at it.

 

[MarylandONE]

Who ever said the people who were turned down were "asshats?" Or had the personality of a rock? I think anyone would understand that, and you are overstating the obvious. We're not talking about no-personality people, we're talking about people who have strong backgrounds (from a technical standpoint) and are great people to fly with from a personality standpoint. Safe, technically proficient AND good people who have already set aside 10 days to get a stupid type that get a letter that basically says "try again in a year." That's what people are b!tching about.

As I clearly stated, but I know you can't see past your own thoughts, maybe they are good people but came accross poorly in the interview. Who cares about their technical backround? Any monkey can fly a plane.

 

[regionaltard]

Who cares about their technical backround? Any monkey can fly a plane.

You got that right.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

As I clearly stated, but I know you can't see past your own thoughts, maybe they are good people but came accross poorly in the interview. Who cares about their technical backround? Any monkey can fly a plane.

There appears to be a crossing of wires between yourself and jetalc. You make it clear that the personality of the candidate will determine success during the interview (probably true). Jetalc along with myself criticize the fact that technical ability (737 type rating) features with great proponderance in the decision to obtain an interview in the first place, at least compared to a non typed applicant.

If SWA truly desires personality over technical ability, perhaps the following policy should be considered. Make the type a requirement ONLY after the conditional offer of employment. This will permit all applicant's to put their personality to the test during the interview process without the burden of buying a type that will serve them no real practical use with any other airline within the industry- especially if they are rejected.

 

[jetalc]

Maryland Asshat

Maryland -

Before you continue patting yourself on the back that you are "one of the elite," socially adept overachievers with your "unique" handle on what it takes to be a good pilot, maybe you should reflect a little on your own words and hypocrisy. The following are the words of a self-indulgent asshat, namely, you:

"We hire good people and pilots." (OK, so if nobody cares about technical skills, what constitutes a good pilot, to the point where you would differentiate between good people and good pilots?)

"Seems the people crying about it didn't get the job. The process worked well then." (But apparently didn't work well enough to weed malcontents like yourself out of the process)

"That's why we hire the best. The best encompasses a lot of adjectives and you clearly don't get it." (I'm in awe - that means that you're...OMG...one of the untouchables...I'm so honored)

"Thank God for our PD for weeding out the uninspired." (Awww...now I see it - SWA is looking for 'inspired' people, even if they can't read an approach plate...gotcha)

"Thank God you are not one of us." (If you are typical of 'us', thank God I'm not - holy sh!t, what a clown!)

"A freaking monkey can fly a plane it's the right person who can understand flying is 1/2 the quality of a pilot at SWA." (That blathering incoherent statement is reflective of someone who has chugging jet fuel WAY TOO LONG!)

"The PD weeds out the people who are socially challenged or less then customer service oriented." (And you know this how? That appears to be a blanket statement regarding people you don't know. The mathematical logic behind that is saying that those that have been turned down are socially challenged and less (sic) then (nice spelling, assclown) customer service oriented)

This one kills me - what an overcritical hypocrite:
"If you are going to contimplate the "cost" of getting one..." (It's spelled 'contemplate', not 'contimplate')

Followed immediately by (yep - you guessed it):
"And no, no one cares what you think but I had to spell correct your post. It was killing me." (See previous spelling corrections - they were killing me)

"Maybe you have the personality of a rock and the customer service attitude of a United pilot. Then I would say you are unqualified." (My, my...if that's what makes someone unqualified at SWA, I would say MOST people interviewing are HIGHLY qualified)

"Why is it pilots are also short sighted? Should they list that they require you not to be an asshat? Do you need everything spelled out for you?" (Here comes the condescending attitude again..how do you spell 'asshat?')

"As I clearly stated, but I know you can't see past your own thoughts, maybe they are good people but came accross poorly in the interview. Who cares about their technical backround? Any monkey can fly a plane." (I guess I missed that part where you stated anything close - can you point me in the direction where you said that?)

Maryland One - please, please, please...STFU. Have a nice day.

 

[MarylandONE]

If SWA truly desires personality over technical ability.

I never said that....If you have the mins you have enough technical ability. Their desires are a well rounded candidate.

Who said you have to buy a type? Go back to the beginning of the string and read again.

 

[MarylandONE]

Maryland -

Before you continue patting yourself on the back that you are "one of the elite," socially adept overachievers with your "unique" handle on what it takes to be a good pilot, maybe you should reflect a little on your own words and hypocrisy. The following are the words of a self-indulgent asshat, namely, you:

"We hire good people and pilots." (OK, so if nobody cares about technical skills, what constitutes a good pilot, to the point where you would differentiate between good people and good pilots?)

"Seems the people crying about it didn't get the job. The process worked well then." (But apparently didn't work well enough to weed malcontents like yourself out of the process)

"That's why we hire the best. The best encompasses a lot of adjectives and you clearly don't get it." (I'm in awe - that means that you're...OMG...one of the untouchables...I'm so honored)

"Thank God for our PD for weeding out the uninspired." (Awww...now I see it - SWA is looking for 'inspired' people, even if they can't read an approach plate...gotcha)

"Thank God you are not one of us." (If you are typical of 'us', thank God I'm not - holy sh!t, what a clown!)

"A freaking monkey can fly a plane it's the right person who can understand flying is 1/2 the quality of a pilot at SWA." (That blathering incoherent statement is reflective of someone who has chugging jet fuel WAY TOO LONG!)

"The PD weeds out the people who are socially challenged or less then customer service oriented." (And you know this how? That appears to be a blanket statement regarding people you don't know. The mathematical logic behind that is saying that those that have been turned down are socially challenged and less (sic) then (nice spelling, assclown) customer service oriented)

This one kills me - what an overcritical hypocrite:
"If you are going to contimplate the "cost" of getting one..." (It's spelled 'contemplate', not 'contimplate')

Followed immediately by (yep - you guessed it):
"And no, no one cares what you think but I had to spell correct your post. It was killing me." (See previous spelling corrections - they were killing me)

"Maybe you have the personality of a rock and the customer service attitude of a United pilot. Then I would say you are unqualified." (My, my...if that's what makes someone unqualified at SWA, I would say MOST people interviewing are HIGHLY qualified)

"Why is it pilots are also short sighted? Should they list that they require you not to be an asshat? Do you need everything spelled out for you?" (Here comes the condescending attitude again..how do you spell 'asshat?')

"As I clearly stated, but I know you can't see past your own thoughts, maybe they are good people but came accross poorly in the interview. Who cares about their technical backround? Any monkey can fly a plane." (I guess I missed that part where you stated anything close - can you point me in the direction where you said that?)

Maryland One - please, please, please...STFU. Have a nice day.

How much time did you spend on that one. Have I gotten under your skin?

You clearly don't read well. www.Hookedonphonics.com might suit you.

 

[Hawkered]

Maryland One,

It's great that you defend your employer, but you're taking this all a little too far. I'm sure you're a good guy, but you're comin' across like a lonely rich kid stickin' his tongue out at the poor neighborhood kids as you drive through a rough section of town.

People here also have dreams, luckily you and I have realized ours, but don't be a pr!ck about it!

 

[semperfido]

Albie, this paragraph sums up the whole point of this thread. it is a GD beauty contest, and the guys are fed up with it.

...well get used to it because some things never change

 

[TexaSWA]

Make the type a requirement ONLY after the conditional offer of employment.

Read the website, this is how it works. After an employment offer you have six months to get a type.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Read the website, this is how it works. After an employment offer you have six months to get a type.

I think his concern is with the trend that without the type you probably won't get called. Someone posted earlier how getting the type, regardless of gaining employment, was still an educational and worthwile experience. I tend to agree. I'm glad to have gotten it and enjoyed learning about flying a heavy from fighter.

As for all the PFT discussions, no one was employed by SWA while paying for the type out of their own pocket and SWA doesn't seem to gain financially for all those going out to get the type, so I don't see how its PFT. I also paid for my ATP and I wouldn't consider that PFT. I think SWA is just setting it as one of the requirements for employment.

 

[enigma]

Maybe some of you guys should do as I'm attempting to do. I can't seem to interest SWA in interviewing me, and I doubt that I ever will. (I can't be much more qualified than I am now other than going Check airman, and my company doesn't seem to need any more Check Airmen. Besides, getting the job is a political process)

So, I just try to emulate the SWA attitude in my current job. My current employer, Spirit, is NOT Southwest and doesn't show any signs of every even trying to emulate Southwest in the way they deal with people. But, I finally realized that there is no reason why I can't just try and treat other people the way I want to be treated. ( I always have on a personal basis, but only recently have I attempted to actually influence others to do the same) It doesn't help me, either here or my chances of ever getting on with SWA, to keep carrying a grudge against SWA for failing to see that I'm a SWA kinda guy. So I try and use the energy positively instead of negatively.

I'll recommend that some of you attempt to do the same. Ironically, the biggest threat to SWA could come from airlines employing pilots who determine to make their airline as close to SWA as possible.

Note, I'm human like everyone else. Yes, I still occasionally let the rejection piss me off. I even occasionally comment on threads like this. Forgive me if I've appeared to be argumentive in said threads. No, I don't need a hug. , just trying to keep it real.

enigma

 

[TexaSWA]

I think his concern is with the trend that without the type you probably won't get called....

This may be the case now, but it hasnt always been, and most certainly will not be forever.

Truth be told, I myself think its a B.S. requirement. Not enough to stop me from going out and buying one myself and taking a chance, but B.S. none the less.

I do not agree with MarylandOne (?real SWA pilot?) in that it is designed as a tool to measure ones level of desire to work for SWA. Although it may be used as one.

It was simply a requirement from way back that has never been done away with. From what I understand there was a time where SWA benifitted somehow be it insurance, training, or whatever, but that those days are gone.

 

[chase]

A simple reminder

To all,


Not everyone who purports to be a SWA pilot who posts on here may in fact be a SWA pilot. Folks can write anyway they feel but use good judgment (err on that side if possible) in evaluating if someone who sounds a little over the top about not just SWA but any airline may in fact be someone other than they say, after all there are many who just love to stir the pot.

Most of the pilots who are at Southwest have had their fair share of good friends, great guys/gals who haven't been hired. We all share in the frustration that has come through loud & clear by some on this thread & by our own friends. Enigma sums it up rather well, SWA hasn't cornered the market on good pilots & I certainly don't assume we have the "perfect" system. It is what it is & those critics of it can find plenty of fault in it. As Enigma said & I agree, those on the inside & outside must learn to deal with it. Anger toward a process that is outside of yours & my control while maybe therapeutic doesn't result in much change.

Using the "golden rule" to treat customers, fellow workers, future employees/employers, friends & strangers isn't a novel concept....the concept has been been around a long time...Enigma seems to get it, as many others do also, some who get interviewed & hired by SWA & others who don't but they still get it. Not every SWA employee gets up on the right side of the bed & meets these goals every day but if folks are consistently posting messages with a tone that doesn't reflect that type of mentality they are either

(1) Imposters claiming to be SWA employees
(2) Evidence the system isn't perfect (so acknowledged since they hired me )

Regardless, as Enigma says, apply the things that have been said over & over on here & by most SWA pilots when they are talking to folks about what is the key to success at getting hired, "make sure your 'nice-meter' is on high"...yes there is more to it than that but it isn't a bad start. Enigma I wish you good luck along with the others who are trying....you define professionalism with the approach you're taking, one that is worthy of emmulating by all of us. Cheers,

BTW, while the vast majority (I don't know the numbers sorry) of folks who are getting the call have their types, it is true there appears to be a very small number of folks who get an interview who don't have a type but that number is small. I would think the same thing could be said of folks with no 4 yr degree....the point is that to make categorical statements that "SWA won't call you unless you have (fill in the blank, hrs, PIC, Check Airman, 4 yr degree, type) is wrong....there is a cross section of folks from all levels from what I've observed & have been told....can one improve one's chances by having more of the squares filled? Possibly but that is a personal choice by the individual & not by SWA....again it isn't a value judgment on the many qualified applicants who are out there...any company sorts based upon some type of criteria, the debate on what that is & whether it is right will be filling more forum space in 6 months or less I'm sure as the next round of folks get to the point of applying & interviewing.