SWA; legacy airline

[BILL LUMBERG]

No joy from me about any of the airlines going through BK. It devastates lives and leaves nothing good in its wake. I have been on the receiving end at a previous employer. I don't begrudge anyone just wanting to go to work and bring home a stable paycheck to support their families. When all the majors slash wages and work rules it effects everyone negatively. It helped to further unleash the outsourcing genie and that mess is a long way from being cleaned up. It just seemed an odd comment since everything I associate with BK reeks of failure on multiple levels ultimately negatively effecting the industry as a whole.

Fair enough Howard...

For you and scoreboard.....so what was the effect of a young startup named xyz who didn't pay scale wages, had no pension, only paid on a trip level (ie no overpay if you go over), required a type rating to be hired etc etc.....

So who started the downward spiral on the profession? This is not a finger pointing exercise, but when you guys get on here and toss stones like you are the keepers of the torch, you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

Good luck to you, like someone else said on here...I hope you get huge raises so we got something to shoot for.

 

[redflyer65]

Why do you like to throw in the 'no pension' angle again and again.

Those guys had 401k's that were way ahead of their time and huge stock options. The stock split probably ten times over that period and those guys retired multi millionaires. A little different that upstart xyz isn't it?

But the tag line 'you guys had no pension' still resonates because it fits your argument....but doesn't come close to telling what really happened. If you didn't work for SW, you probably wouldn't have known how well those guys did.

It was all about having skin in the game, and it paid off big time.

 

[waveflyer]

Why bother with the "xyz" bill.

The biggest difference to me is outsourcing. And you know this.
Swa hired pilots willing to work for a wage roughly equal from inflation to what we make now, plus had pretty amazing stock options. I get paid well, and my class is the least well off in SWA history. Regardless, a man can choose to work for any wage they desire.
Are you a communist?
The problem I see, is legacy carriers used SWA to drive a wedge in you, and get you to agree to set up a whipsaw market where OTHER pilots would have to respond to swa's competitive pressure.

You felt pressure. Other pilots got the low paycheck and the carrot dangled a little farther away the more you outsourced. Until, after 9/11, when outsourcing put pressure on your own wages and you finally took the dive.
Sucks, but you won't get anywhere blaming SWA - and don't look at your own role in that race to the bottom.
Sadly, it's the generation coming up now that seems to be fixing things- unwilling to invest in this career for the hopes of kinda well off wages at the top after a 15-20 year wait. They'd rather do something else.
And that's good.

 

[canyonblue]

I enjoy my job, but 3rd generation pilot and old enough to remember what once was.

There's your problem, it should have stopped at 2 generations. Anyone stupid enough to get their kids in an aviation career now, deserve the fate they are handed. My advice, ensure your kids do well in school so they will not have have to suffer in this industry. I'm amazed when I see a pilot who has a child on a path to a flying career, WTF?

 

[scoreboardII]

Fair enough Howard...

For you and scoreboard.....so what was the effect of a young startup named xyz who didn't pay scale wages, had no pension, only paid on a trip level (ie no overpay if you go over), required a type rating to be hired etc etc.....

So who started the downward spiral on the profession? This is not a finger pointing exercise, but when you guys get on here and toss stones like you are the keepers of the torch, you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

Good luck to you, like someone else said on here...I hope you get huge raises so we got something to shoot for.

It wasn't a slide downward, it was a change in the marketplace. Plain and simple rule for business, adapt or fail. What the legacies of old did, was plod along and outright ignore airline xyz, they scoffed xyz. Then, it was to late to do anything about xyz.

This story repeats itself over and over in every industry, and is repeating itself now with Spirit and Allegient. If they are ignored as they pretty much are, then business will need to adapt, or go bankrupt.

 

[HowardBorden]

So who started the downward spiral on the profession? This is not a finger pointing exercise, but when you guys get on here and toss stones like you are the keepers of the torch, you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

I will postulate that the downward spiral was not caused by airline XYZ which I can only assume is supposed to be SWA, but is based more on a complete and total failure of the vast majority of airlines to develop and initiate an effective business plan to remain profitable in a post deregulation marketplace. That floundering and ineffective business model lead to a myriad of problems culminating in record losses and finally, much through external forces beyond their control, the use of the "accounting tool" (your words) of bankruptcy. The resultant BK proceedings produced unprecedented downward pressure on every aspect of the profession. Wages were slashed, work rules were decimated and outsourcing skyrocketed.

Outsourcing began well before the BK conga line but it really showed explosive growth after scope clauses were voided through the BK process. Legacies began massive furloughs and record high paying job losses were replaced with the perennial B-scale which is the regional airline industry as a whole. That pay shift alone has forever skewed the average pay of this profession in what is so far the largest downward spiral of pay and work rules in industry history.

In the 80's and 90's I was not employed at SWA. I had no voice in union negotiating and no vote on union contracts. Since my employment began at Southwest in the 2000's, I have been compensated at a rate well above industry average and have enjoyed spectacular rigs and work rules. I personally would have not written off SWA as a prospective employer during the 80's or 90's because that is the time frame when I was riding on SWA jumpseats and comparing that work environment to that of other 121 carriers and became firmly convinced that Southwest was the place that would be the best fit for me personally.

 

[waveflyer]

Don't forget that bc of "seniority" and how we have no transferability when our companies become something other than when we were hired.

No other profession do people have to attempt to make decades long business decisions and when wrong face such catastrophic results

Not saying I know the answer, but that problem is real

 

[SWA Bubba]

Don't forget that bc of "seniority" and how we have no transferability when our companies become something other than when we were hired.

No other profession do people have to attempt to make decades long business decisions and when wrong face such catastrophic results

Not saying I know the answer, but that problem is real

Actually, it seems that it's not just the airline industry, but unionized industries in general. When you have large numbers of interchangeable worker bees (pilots, drivers, auto workers, etc), that tend to unionize for collective bargaining, it's all about seniority. Start over at a new company, and start over at the bottom.

Bubba

 

[Phlintstone]

Actually, it seems that it's not just the airline industry, but unionized industries in general. When you have large numbers of interchangeable worker bees (pilots, drivers, auto workers, etc), that tend to unionize for collective bargaining, it's all about seniority. Start over at a new company, and start over at the bottom.

Bubba

Yup. It is not just the airline industry. Unions make it all about seniority. Not bashing unions, it is just a byproduct of their existence.

Phred

 

[canyonblue]

you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

I always love when guys start out longing for the good old days, when they weren't even flying at their current airline yet. Boys them was the days! :crying: