SWA; legacy airline

[humveedriver]

I noticed that most news articles and even airline pilot central.com dont refer to SWA as a legacy carrier. The only two requirements I found to be a legacy carrier were; exist before deregulation and be a low cost/low fare airline. Southwest has been around before 1978 an their tickets are of average price, sometimes more expensive. If anything I think US Airways should lose its legacy standing as it consistently offers the cheapest fares and has some of the lowest labor costs. I'm thinking less than two years SWA will get its proper recognition.

1 year and 4 months. I was close.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/southwest-airlines-once-brassy-upstart-023800228.html

 

[ron burgundy]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.[/QUOTE]

Just wait..everyone takes their turn.

 

[scoreboardII]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.[/QUOTE]

Just wait..everyone takes their turn.

It's now a moot point. All the recent airlines going through bankruptcy just proved all companies can survive just fine by offloading debt. The system rewards failure with a mulligan. If it comes down to it, as I've said before, if SWA ever goes into bankruptcy protection, it will ultimately result in the next round of bankruptcies for everyone all over again. Careful what you wish for.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

It's now a moot point. All the recent airlines going through bankruptcy just proved all companies can survive just fine by offloading debt. The system rewards failure with a mulligan. If it comes down to it, as I've said before, if SWA ever goes into bankruptcy protection, it will ultimately result in the next round of bankruptcies for everyone all over again. Careful what you wish for.

Scoreboard...

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

 

[HowardBorden]

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

Do you view it as some kind of "victory?"

The creditors certainly must view it as a failure since they were not paid agreed amounts but received pennies on the dollar.

Are you saying the employees don't view it as a failure? Pay rates were decimated and work rules were stripped from contractual agreements. Scope clauses were gutted. Couple all that with furloughs and the fact that there has been nothing close to restoration even amid record profits.

How exactly should one asses the situation: victory, a draw or failure? If and when SWA gets dragged through the process at some point I can assure you most at SWA will view it as an incredible failure.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Howard, you missed my point.

This is an accounting tool. No more, no less. My airline still exists....we fly all over the world. I get a paycheck......not a failure.

Did I like the concessions? No... Do I think it was a "victory"? No...

Nobody was high fiving around Atown when it happened, but I remember clearly SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

 

[HowardBorden]

SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

No joy from me about any of the airlines going through BK. It devastates lives and leaves nothing good in its wake. I have been on the receiving end at a previous employer. I don't begrudge anyone just wanting to go to work and bring home a stable paycheck to support their families. When all the majors slash wages and work rules it effects everyone negatively. It helped to further unleash the outsourcing genie and that mess is a long way from being cleaned up. It just seemed an odd comment since everything I associate with BK reeks of failure on multiple levels ultimately negatively effecting the industry as a whole.

 

[scoreboardII]

Scoreboard...

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

Bankruptcy is by definition, a failed business plan.

 

[scoreboardII]

Howard, you missed my point.

This is an accounting tool. No more, no less. My airline still exists....we fly all over the world. I get a paycheck......not a failure.

Did I like the concessions? No... Do I think it was a "victory"? No...

Nobody was high fiving around Atown when it happened, but I remember clearly SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

Lets back this train up, on the face it looks like everything is hunky dory at good old airline XYZ after a bankruptcy. But the reality is, they pay more for debt service, they have a much tougher time finding vendors willing to provide a service at a good rate (paying more for cokes, gas, hotels, etc), the employees are pissed (reduced employee moral=piss poor customer service and slower service, costlier service), etc.

Not a win. Not even a push.

And I don't recall any SWA dancing on graves, and as you put, everything turned out fine. There may have been many SWA proclaiming the fact a bankruptcy occurred and all the ramifications that go with that, that's all I remember reading.

Bankruptcy means one thing, employees get the shaft for managements ******************** up.

 

[humveedriver]

Joe Leonard did not want to see Delta go into bankruptcy. He said if they do the market in ATL would become very unpredictable. The last thing any pilot should wish for is SWA declaring bankruptcy. Unless you want to see $99 transcon flights make a comeback.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

No joy from me about any of the airlines going through BK. It devastates lives and leaves nothing good in its wake. I have been on the receiving end at a previous employer. I don't begrudge anyone just wanting to go to work and bring home a stable paycheck to support their families. When all the majors slash wages and work rules it effects everyone negatively. It helped to further unleash the outsourcing genie and that mess is a long way from being cleaned up. It just seemed an odd comment since everything I associate with BK reeks of failure on multiple levels ultimately negatively effecting the industry as a whole.

Fair enough Howard...

For you and scoreboard.....so what was the effect of a young startup named xyz who didn't pay scale wages, had no pension, only paid on a trip level (ie no overpay if you go over), required a type rating to be hired etc etc.....

So who started the downward spiral on the profession? This is not a finger pointing exercise, but when you guys get on here and toss stones like you are the keepers of the torch, you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

Good luck to you, like someone else said on here...I hope you get huge raises so we got something to shoot for.

 

[redflyer65]

Why do you like to throw in the 'no pension' angle again and again.

Those guys had 401k's that were way ahead of their time and huge stock options. The stock split probably ten times over that period and those guys retired multi millionaires. A little different that upstart xyz isn't it?

But the tag line 'you guys had no pension' still resonates because it fits your argument....but doesn't come close to telling what really happened. If you didn't work for SW, you probably wouldn't have known how well those guys did.

It was all about having skin in the game, and it paid off big time.

 

[waveflyer]

Why bother with the "xyz" bill.

The biggest difference to me is outsourcing. And you know this.
Swa hired pilots willing to work for a wage roughly equal from inflation to what we make now, plus had pretty amazing stock options. I get paid well, and my class is the least well off in SWA history. Regardless, a man can choose to work for any wage they desire.
Are you a communist?
The problem I see, is legacy carriers used SWA to drive a wedge in you, and get you to agree to set up a whipsaw market where OTHER pilots would have to respond to swa's competitive pressure.

You felt pressure. Other pilots got the low paycheck and the carrot dangled a little farther away the more you outsourced. Until, after 9/11, when outsourcing put pressure on your own wages and you finally took the dive.
Sucks, but you won't get anywhere blaming SWA - and don't look at your own role in that race to the bottom.
Sadly, it's the generation coming up now that seems to be fixing things- unwilling to invest in this career for the hopes of kinda well off wages at the top after a 15-20 year wait. They'd rather do something else.
And that's good.

 

[canyonblue]

I enjoy my job, but 3rd generation pilot and old enough to remember what once was.

There's your problem, it should have stopped at 2 generations. Anyone stupid enough to get their kids in an aviation career now, deserve the fate they are handed. My advice, ensure your kids do well in school so they will not have have to suffer in this industry. I'm amazed when I see a pilot who has a child on a path to a flying career, WTF?

 

[scoreboardII]

Fair enough Howard...

For you and scoreboard.....so what was the effect of a young startup named xyz who didn't pay scale wages, had no pension, only paid on a trip level (ie no overpay if you go over), required a type rating to be hired etc etc.....

So who started the downward spiral on the profession? This is not a finger pointing exercise, but when you guys get on here and toss stones like you are the keepers of the torch, you really have to remember the 80's and 90's and how XYZ was undercutting our QOL and pay.

Good luck to you, like someone else said on here...I hope you get huge raises so we got something to shoot for.

It wasn't a slide downward, it was a change in the marketplace. Plain and simple rule for business, adapt or fail. What the legacies of old did, was plod along and outright ignore airline xyz, they scoffed xyz. Then, it was to late to do anything about xyz.

This story repeats itself over and over in every industry, and is repeating itself now with Spirit and Allegient. If they are ignored as they pretty much are, then business will need to adapt, or go bankrupt.