SWA; legacy airline

[Lear70]

I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who accept the new reality.

Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line.

Merry Christmas! / Happy Hannukah! ( Unless those phrases offend you.

And if it does, too f***ing bad.

 

[Snapshot]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.

Actually... one has never been bankrupt, yet remains highly profitable...........

 

[Whine Lover]

"I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who are young enough to accept the new reality." -WL

"Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line." - Lear 70



I dunno....things like this just pop into my head.

Sometimes it's out of the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it's after an arm-wrestling match with a twelve ounce adversary.

Feel free to quote me anytime....I forget half the krap I make up anyway.




Whine

P.S. - I made a slight modification. You see what I did there.

 

[Lear70]

"I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who are young enough to accept the new reality." -WL

"Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line." - Lear 70



I dunno....things like this just pop into my head.

Sometimes it's out of the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it's after an arm-wrestling match with a twelve ounce adversary.

Feel free to quote me anytime....I forget half the krap I make up anyway.




Whine

P.S. - I made a slight modification. You see what I did there.

Yeah, I wouldn't say just the young, though.

There are plenty of pilots who've had the crap beat out of them their entire career, 3 or 4 failed carriers or long-term furloughs, trying to raise a family never knowing what's just around the corner, who have given up on trying to return this to what it once was...

It really is a sad shell of its former self. I enjoy my job, but 3rd generation pilot and old enough to remember what once was.

 

[scoreboardII]

Sorry guys, I don't get all teary eyed thinking how good it was back in the day.

We need to focus on today and future threats, thats all we have input, if marginal control over.

Back in the day, you had the same issues as today.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry guys, I don't get all teary eyed thinking how good it was back in the day.

Didn't say I got teary-eyed. I did, however, identify with his post, knowing what used to be, and what crap it is today in comparison. Better than not having a job, by all means, but a shadow of its former self.

We need to focus on today and future threats, thats all we have input, if marginal control over.

No one said we were losing focus on anything. You missed the point.

Back in the day, you had the same issues as today.

No, not really, no. Back in the day the money part of the equation wasn't NEARLY the problem it is today, i.e. trying to recover from bankruptcy-era pay cuts and loss of pensions.

But if you think so, that's your prerogative, I simply disagree with you.

 

[AlbieF15]

The reality is SWA pilots of old made their fortune by being productive, making a solid albeit lower hourly rate, and raking in on the stock options. The Capts of the 80s and early 90s were stock millionaires at some point.

In the early 2000s, SWA grew leaps and bounds as other legacies contracted and scoped out their flying to the regionals. They rapidly grew, allowing some of those hired in the late 90s, who missed the stock boom, to at least get to the left seat in rapid fashion and make pretty darn good money.

Now the growth at SWA has slowed, due to a host of factors including a global economy slowdown and the absorption of AirTran. The legacies are cutting back (to an extent) on RJs as the 50 seaters are killed off and customers demand a few more perks. Efforts to improve scope have also assisted in that endeavor.

I don't fault anyone who jumped at SWA, and I personally know a lot of great people there including some very close friends. However, I do worry about them as I think many of them are going to face a tougher time in the coming years relative to their expectations. Nobody on the street cries for a pilot who is "only" making 130-150k a year. However, when guys hired five years earlier have a career so radically different--fast upgrades, continued growth, etc and they face a much slower advancement suddenly the flat stock price, lack of a pension plan outside 401k etc start to become sources of frustration. The longer I am in this industry, the more I appreciate the pilots of the 50s, 60s, and 70s who worked to help define the "industry standard" contract that became the model for not only ALPA carriers but for non-union carriers and independent union carriers that came about (including FedEx) in the 70s and 80s.

As SWA starts to look more and more like the legacies in terms of pilot group size, and legacies look more like SWA in terms of post 9/11 contracts that have stripped pensions and increased productivity, I think the differences in the respective companies is shrinking. Of course there are pilots at SWA who really bleed Canyon Blue and bust their butt to make the place work efficiently. But I also think there are pilots at Alaska, Delta, Hawaiian, and other places that are just as proud of their company and willing to go the extra mile to help their company stay profitable.

It would seem to me the best way for all of us to go forward is to emulate the good things in each other's respective contracts and figure out what works to keep our companies in the black but make sure we get our share of the pie along the way too. Failure to learn from each other's success is going to lead to a situations like Jetblue and USAir where some pilots are working at a discount to their competition--not good for the pilots there or the pilots at their competitors. Gary Kelly strikes me as someone who looks more like a traditional old school airline CEO than a Herb Kelleher. If I were a stagnated FO at SWA, I'd be paying close attention to ways to improve my retirement since I was probably NOT going to get as many years in the left seat as guys did there in the past. If I were at a legacy, I'd be looking at ways the SWA guys can add to their paycheck with a little extra work without completely destroying the quality of life. I'm sure that an MD88 guy at Delta's schedule is more "SWA like" In 2012 than it was in 1998. By the same token, there may be some advantages for the pilots at SWA if some of the benefits like retirement in place at other profitable companies (look at FedEx, UPS, or even Alaska).

I don't think USPA will every play, but it seems to me that SWAPA, the IPA, and ALPA have a lot more in common than they do differences. It also seems to me those who have idolized their management to "do the right thing"...be it at Jetblue, SWA, or FedEx have all eventually found out that when push comes to shove airlines will attempt to reduce costs on the backs of the pilot groups. We are all looking more and more alike to this casual observer....

 

[Dan Roman]

Very well said Albie.
Nice to see an intelligent post on here rather than the "my airline can beat up your airline" crap.

 

[scoreboardII]

Well said Albie, merry Christmas by the way, hugg the women for me please, twice.

Buttttttt, Don't get too teary eyed for days of old. Why are we in the position we are in today: outsourced flying being the biggest detriment to our industry?

Those same pilots you aspire to be, those from the 50-60-70's, THOSE guys gave up the jobs. THEY set the stage for RJ wages and LCC competition.

Imagine, if one major airline union back in the day had the balls to keep that "it's below me flying a turboprop flying" under the same union, SWA would not be here today. To think it only would have taken AA just two or three 737's or even turboprops to kick SWA to the curb back in the day. Heck, maybe thats what AK is doing now in the Pacific Northwest with it's Q400's, but thats another thread.

My point, you long for those higher wage days, yet those only existed at the expense of outsourcing lower paying jobs. And thats how we got to where we are today.

 

[igneousy2]

Actually... one has never been bankrupt, yet remains highly profitable...........

Okay...I give up, who might that be!!!

 

[humveedriver]

I noticed that most news articles and even airline pilot central.com dont refer to SWA as a legacy carrier. The only two requirements I found to be a legacy carrier were; exist before deregulation and be a low cost/low fare airline. Southwest has been around before 1978 an their tickets are of average price, sometimes more expensive. If anything I think US Airways should lose its legacy standing as it consistently offers the cheapest fares and has some of the lowest labor costs. I'm thinking less than two years SWA will get its proper recognition.

1 year and 4 months. I was close.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/southwest-airlines-once-brassy-upstart-023800228.html

 

[ron burgundy]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.[/QUOTE]

Just wait..everyone takes their turn.

 

[scoreboardII]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.[/QUOTE]

Just wait..everyone takes their turn.

It's now a moot point. All the recent airlines going through bankruptcy just proved all companies can survive just fine by offloading debt. The system rewards failure with a mulligan. If it comes down to it, as I've said before, if SWA ever goes into bankruptcy protection, it will ultimately result in the next round of bankruptcies for everyone all over again. Careful what you wish for.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

It's now a moot point. All the recent airlines going through bankruptcy just proved all companies can survive just fine by offloading debt. The system rewards failure with a mulligan. If it comes down to it, as I've said before, if SWA ever goes into bankruptcy protection, it will ultimately result in the next round of bankruptcies for everyone all over again. Careful what you wish for.

Scoreboard...

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

 

[HowardBorden]

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

Do you view it as some kind of "victory?"

The creditors certainly must view it as a failure since they were not paid agreed amounts but received pennies on the dollar.

Are you saying the employees don't view it as a failure? Pay rates were decimated and work rules were stripped from contractual agreements. Scope clauses were gutted. Couple all that with furloughs and the fact that there has been nothing close to restoration even amid record profits.

How exactly should one asses the situation: victory, a draw or failure? If and when SWA gets dragged through the process at some point I can assure you most at SWA will view it as an incredible failure.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Howard, you missed my point.

This is an accounting tool. No more, no less. My airline still exists....we fly all over the world. I get a paycheck......not a failure.

Did I like the concessions? No... Do I think it was a "victory"? No...

Nobody was high fiving around Atown when it happened, but I remember clearly SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

 

[HowardBorden]

SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

No joy from me about any of the airlines going through BK. It devastates lives and leaves nothing good in its wake. I have been on the receiving end at a previous employer. I don't begrudge anyone just wanting to go to work and bring home a stable paycheck to support their families. When all the majors slash wages and work rules it effects everyone negatively. It helped to further unleash the outsourcing genie and that mess is a long way from being cleaned up. It just seemed an odd comment since everything I associate with BK reeks of failure on multiple levels ultimately negatively effecting the industry as a whole.

 

[scoreboardII]

Scoreboard...

Why do all the Spirit Warriors look at our Legacy bankruptcies as "failure"?

Bankruptcy is by definition, a failed business plan.

 

[scoreboardII]

Howard, you missed my point.

This is an accounting tool. No more, no less. My airline still exists....we fly all over the world. I get a paycheck......not a failure.

Did I like the concessions? No... Do I think it was a "victory"? No...

Nobody was high fiving around Atown when it happened, but I remember clearly SWA people were running around all giddy when we went in. Wasn't one of your classier days....

Oh well.....hopefully you get spared the "fun"

Lets back this train up, on the face it looks like everything is hunky dory at good old airline XYZ after a bankruptcy. But the reality is, they pay more for debt service, they have a much tougher time finding vendors willing to provide a service at a good rate (paying more for cokes, gas, hotels, etc), the employees are pissed (reduced employee moral=piss poor customer service and slower service, costlier service), etc.

Not a win. Not even a push.

And I don't recall any SWA dancing on graves, and as you put, everything turned out fine. There may have been many SWA proclaiming the fact a bankruptcy occurred and all the ramifications that go with that, that's all I remember reading.

Bankruptcy means one thing, employees get the shaft for managements ******************** up.

 

[humveedriver]

Joe Leonard did not want to see Delta go into bankruptcy. He said if they do the market in ATL would become very unpredictable. The last thing any pilot should wish for is SWA declaring bankruptcy. Unless you want to see $99 transcon flights make a comeback.