SWA; legacy airline

[humveedriver]

Actually Whine I looked at the same stupid Wikipedia article you quoted. Nothing there. Legacy just turned into a buzz word. I did learn something though or forgot and relearned. Prior to deregulation, new entrant airlines could only fly intra state, to avoid the CAB. They jus dealt with the state gov'ts. SWA didn't fly outside of TX until 1979 (New Orleans). So yeah, the may have been around prior to 1978, but they didn't or couldn't start to fly anywhere until after deregulation. I was a youngster when all that went down.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

No title

This is just another thread for the pea-brained egotistical SWA bashers to feed on

 

[rajflyboy]

hell yeah it is

 

[Whine Lover]

No. It most certainly is NOT.

Southwest Airlines is the greatest example of success in the Airline Industry.

Their labor productivity and managerial skills are the Model for the entire Industry in this country as well as many other parts of the World.

Their consistent profitability, "one aircraft" model for maintenance and training, and countless other innovations have been the Beacon to which other airlines have navigated by.

Nobody has done it better in the history of the Industry.

They innovate, adapt, survive, and conquer.....And allow others to learn.

They have a superior business model, people, and portfolios.

Sorry if I am "bashing" them too hard....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

HOWEVER...

They are NOT a Legacy Carrier Per Se. Nor, are they "What's wrong with this Industry".

See the distinction(s)?

History is exactly that....All that has happened before and led to this point.

There is NO blame.

Just....Well, "History".

Deregulation and SWA are HUGE part of this Industry's History...I would even venture to put forth that they have been the two largest factors which have brought us to where we are today.

JMHO.


YKMKR

 

[Whine Lover]

" I was a youngster when all that went down."

And, I take no umbrage with you Sir.

I suspected you were just misinformed after a cursory reading of a Wiki article.

My apologies if I sounded too harsh..

I only wish that I was either OLD enough to have experienced REAL airline flying....OR, YOUNG enough to think the current status thereof is "O.K".

I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who accept the new reality.

" You can't miss what you never had".

Unless....you had just a slight taste.






Merry Christmas! / Happy Hannukah! ( Unless those phrases offend you. Then just have a "Happy Whatever Makes You Happy Day! " YAY!. )


Whine

 

[Lear70]

I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who accept the new reality.

Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line.

Merry Christmas! / Happy Hannukah! ( Unless those phrases offend you.

And if it does, too f***ing bad.

 

[Snapshot]

No, legacy airlines have all been through bankruptcy and are now highly profitable. Neither describes WN.

Actually... one has never been bankrupt, yet remains highly profitable...........

 

[Whine Lover]

"I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who are young enough to accept the new reality." -WL

"Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line." - Lear 70



I dunno....things like this just pop into my head.

Sometimes it's out of the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it's after an arm-wrestling match with a twelve ounce adversary.

Feel free to quote me anytime....I forget half the krap I make up anyway.




Whine

P.S. - I made a slight modification. You see what I did there.

 

[Lear70]

"I walk with the cursed, the damned.....Those who are old enough to know what once was and should be, and those who are young enough to accept the new reality." -WL

"Where is that from? Because I'm tempted to make it my signature line." - Lear 70



I dunno....things like this just pop into my head.

Sometimes it's out of the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it's after an arm-wrestling match with a twelve ounce adversary.

Feel free to quote me anytime....I forget half the krap I make up anyway.




Whine

P.S. - I made a slight modification. You see what I did there.

Yeah, I wouldn't say just the young, though.

There are plenty of pilots who've had the crap beat out of them their entire career, 3 or 4 failed carriers or long-term furloughs, trying to raise a family never knowing what's just around the corner, who have given up on trying to return this to what it once was...

It really is a sad shell of its former self. I enjoy my job, but 3rd generation pilot and old enough to remember what once was.

 

[scoreboardII]

Sorry guys, I don't get all teary eyed thinking how good it was back in the day.

We need to focus on today and future threats, thats all we have input, if marginal control over.

Back in the day, you had the same issues as today.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry guys, I don't get all teary eyed thinking how good it was back in the day.

Didn't say I got teary-eyed. I did, however, identify with his post, knowing what used to be, and what crap it is today in comparison. Better than not having a job, by all means, but a shadow of its former self.

We need to focus on today and future threats, thats all we have input, if marginal control over.

No one said we were losing focus on anything. You missed the point.

Back in the day, you had the same issues as today.

No, not really, no. Back in the day the money part of the equation wasn't NEARLY the problem it is today, i.e. trying to recover from bankruptcy-era pay cuts and loss of pensions.

But if you think so, that's your prerogative, I simply disagree with you.

 

[AlbieF15]

The reality is SWA pilots of old made their fortune by being productive, making a solid albeit lower hourly rate, and raking in on the stock options. The Capts of the 80s and early 90s were stock millionaires at some point.

In the early 2000s, SWA grew leaps and bounds as other legacies contracted and scoped out their flying to the regionals. They rapidly grew, allowing some of those hired in the late 90s, who missed the stock boom, to at least get to the left seat in rapid fashion and make pretty darn good money.

Now the growth at SWA has slowed, due to a host of factors including a global economy slowdown and the absorption of AirTran. The legacies are cutting back (to an extent) on RJs as the 50 seaters are killed off and customers demand a few more perks. Efforts to improve scope have also assisted in that endeavor.

I don't fault anyone who jumped at SWA, and I personally know a lot of great people there including some very close friends. However, I do worry about them as I think many of them are going to face a tougher time in the coming years relative to their expectations. Nobody on the street cries for a pilot who is "only" making 130-150k a year. However, when guys hired five years earlier have a career so radically different--fast upgrades, continued growth, etc and they face a much slower advancement suddenly the flat stock price, lack of a pension plan outside 401k etc start to become sources of frustration. The longer I am in this industry, the more I appreciate the pilots of the 50s, 60s, and 70s who worked to help define the "industry standard" contract that became the model for not only ALPA carriers but for non-union carriers and independent union carriers that came about (including FedEx) in the 70s and 80s.

As SWA starts to look more and more like the legacies in terms of pilot group size, and legacies look more like SWA in terms of post 9/11 contracts that have stripped pensions and increased productivity, I think the differences in the respective companies is shrinking. Of course there are pilots at SWA who really bleed Canyon Blue and bust their butt to make the place work efficiently. But I also think there are pilots at Alaska, Delta, Hawaiian, and other places that are just as proud of their company and willing to go the extra mile to help their company stay profitable.

It would seem to me the best way for all of us to go forward is to emulate the good things in each other's respective contracts and figure out what works to keep our companies in the black but make sure we get our share of the pie along the way too. Failure to learn from each other's success is going to lead to a situations like Jetblue and USAir where some pilots are working at a discount to their competition--not good for the pilots there or the pilots at their competitors. Gary Kelly strikes me as someone who looks more like a traditional old school airline CEO than a Herb Kelleher. If I were a stagnated FO at SWA, I'd be paying close attention to ways to improve my retirement since I was probably NOT going to get as many years in the left seat as guys did there in the past. If I were at a legacy, I'd be looking at ways the SWA guys can add to their paycheck with a little extra work without completely destroying the quality of life. I'm sure that an MD88 guy at Delta's schedule is more "SWA like" In 2012 than it was in 1998. By the same token, there may be some advantages for the pilots at SWA if some of the benefits like retirement in place at other profitable companies (look at FedEx, UPS, or even Alaska).

I don't think USPA will every play, but it seems to me that SWAPA, the IPA, and ALPA have a lot more in common than they do differences. It also seems to me those who have idolized their management to "do the right thing"...be it at Jetblue, SWA, or FedEx have all eventually found out that when push comes to shove airlines will attempt to reduce costs on the backs of the pilot groups. We are all looking more and more alike to this casual observer....

 

[Dan Roman]

Very well said Albie.
Nice to see an intelligent post on here rather than the "my airline can beat up your airline" crap.

 

[scoreboardII]

Well said Albie, merry Christmas by the way, hugg the women for me please, twice.

Buttttttt, Don't get too teary eyed for days of old. Why are we in the position we are in today: outsourced flying being the biggest detriment to our industry?

Those same pilots you aspire to be, those from the 50-60-70's, THOSE guys gave up the jobs. THEY set the stage for RJ wages and LCC competition.

Imagine, if one major airline union back in the day had the balls to keep that "it's below me flying a turboprop flying" under the same union, SWA would not be here today. To think it only would have taken AA just two or three 737's or even turboprops to kick SWA to the curb back in the day. Heck, maybe thats what AK is doing now in the Pacific Northwest with it's Q400's, but thats another thread.

My point, you long for those higher wage days, yet those only existed at the expense of outsourcing lower paying jobs. And thats how we got to where we are today.

 

[igneousy2]

Actually... one has never been bankrupt, yet remains highly profitable...........

Okay...I give up, who might that be!!!