SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[redflyer65]

Looks like Delta Connection is about to hire 3500 pilots in the not so distant future.

That's some serious hiring right around the corner. I hope they can handle the 9. (-900 that is)

 

[texman]

Well stated. It's a swap of fortunes. SWA had a VERY GOOD last decade, and the legacies got nailed. It's about to turn around, at least hiring wise, in a couple years, and then it won't stop. Will that tempt bottom SWA guys to look at the hiring at all 3 legacies? Probably. When over 4000 pilots are scheduled to leave a carrier within 5 years (DL--2020-2024), that could mean insane upward movement, meaning better QOL and pay (not all planes on same payscale).


Bye Bye---General Lee

Then your cycle of going bankrupt will happen again

 

[texman]

justthinking is obviously not thinking.

This tired old "give back pay to make ROI" is false. We could give back 50% of our pay and only make ROI move a few percent. We are not going to give back 50% in pay or work rules. We are not going to give back anything as long as the other airlines pilots pay are rising above ours, and we continue to make money. 15% ROI be damned, FUPM.

You are exactly right score.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Just Thinking wasn't just not thinking. It was a purposeful dig. He's one of those AirTran guys who makes the worst out of anything, just to be an ass. He knows better, but he just wants to make Southwest sound as bad as possible in any possible case, no matter what. Ditto Fletch, 717, and a few others. We have a few of those at Southwest, as well.

Bubba

 

[madjack]

AAI guys can't really complain much except for the departure of the 717 and the lack of a rebid...the SLI was was not unfair (DOH -2.5) for AAI pilots (sure you wanted more) and the SWA contract is superior. SL9 not going to a vote was a big mistake by AT/ALPA MEC (probably would have failed on SWA side and passed on AAI, then arbitration)...but not allowing a rebid post 717 announcement seems like a big mistake on SWA mgmts part...you risk further damage to the culture to save a few bucks...the same "tripping over dollars to save a few pennies" mentality can be seen on the SWA side as monthly displacements from MCO continue...sad.

 

[scoreboardII]

To finish the ROI story, the reason Gary wants 15% is his bonus goes from 3 times to five times annual pay if he hits 15%. There is no other magic business reason why 15% is needed other than to pad GKs pocket.

 

[General Lee]

AAI guys can't really complain much except for the departure of the 717 and the lack of a rebid...the SLI was was not unfair (DOH -2.5) for AAI pilots (sure you wanted more) and the SWA contract is superior. SL9 not going to a vote was a big mistake by AT/ALPA MEC (probably would have failed on SWA side and passed on AAI, then arbitration)...but not allowing a rebid post 717 announcement seems like a big mistake on SWA mgmts part...you risk further damage to the culture to save a few bucks...the same "tripping over dollars to save a few pennies" mentality can be seen on the SWA side as monthly displacements from MCO continue...sad.

They can't complain much? Tell me another merger that didn't have any Capt positions given to the purchased company? Where everyone had to go to FO and not stay Capt? Even the TWA guys had remaining 757 and MD80 Capts in STL. That would never happen in arbitration, especially since AT was bringing planes to the merger, along with future orders. Come on now, everyone knows that wasn't the "cleanest" SLI, and arbitration would have had a different result. Sorry, but you can keep telling yourself they shouldn't be complaining......right.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

General-

All I heard was you...blah blah blah blah lag blah blah blah blah SWA blah blah

They got a good deal-

If anybody has a right to be pissed, it's junior FOs at SWA

 

[Scoot 11]

Yes...1 more! Now it's a party!

 

[General Lee]

General-

All I heard was you...blah blah blah blah lag blah blah blah blah SWA blah blah

They got a good deal-

If anybody has a right to be pissed, it's junior FOs at SWA

Why is that Wave? Were they "better" than the AT pilots? Did every AT guy want to go to SWA? Welcome to the airline business.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Looks like Delta Connection is about to hire 3500 pilots in the not so distant future.

Can someone lend you a hanky to dry your tears the next time you leave your family on a trip...... Is it like Indiana Jones--you gripping your wife's hand until the last finger slips and you fall 3 stories into your airport car? So sad...?


Anyway, those DCI pilots probably will be needed to fill remaining RJs after tons of current DCI and SWA pilots get hired at the legacies. Sounds like your airline may stagnate for a decade. Throw in your app, and buy more hankies for Pete's sake!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HowardBorden]

Anyway, those DCI pilots probably will be needed to fill remaining RJs after tons of current DCI and SWA pilots get hired at the legacies.

Excellent! Hopefully they are all senior to me.

 

[DougCorp-9]

AAI guys can't really complain much except for the departure of the 717 and the lack of a rebid...the SLI was was not unfair (DOH -2.5) for AAI pilots (sure you wanted more) and the SWA contract is superior.

Uh, I lost 3 years and 10 months and the captain seat that I was in for 10 years or 31% to be exact. I think I can "complain" a little bit. What exactly did you loose?

 

[scoreboardII]

My airline. Or at least what was sold to me as my airline.

 

[redflyer65]

Uh, I lost 3 years and 10 months and the captain seat that I was in for 10 years or 31% to be exact. I think I can "complain" a little bit. What exactly did you loose?

The problem is your trying to compare your 'seniority percentage' at a much smaller carrier vs. that at a company that is around 5 times larger.

If I was at a carrier that had say 100 pilots and I'm number 20, would I expect to still be in the 20th percentile if Southwest (or any larger carrier) bought us? That's your arguement.

 

[General Lee]

The problem is your trying to compare your 'seniority percentage' at a much smaller carrier vs. that at a company that is around 5 times larger.

If I was at a carrier that had say 100 pilots and I'm number 20, would I expect to still be in the 20th percentile if Southwest (or any larger carrier) bought us? That's your arguement.

So how big was TWA compared to AA when bought, and why were there TWA Capts that kept their seats in STL on the 757 and MD80? Please give an example of another airline that purchased another and didn't allow one Capt to keep his/her seat.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

So how big was TWA compared to AA when bought, and why were there TWA Capts that kept their seats in STL on the 757 and MD80? Please give an example of another airline that purchased another and didn't allow one Capt to keep his/her seat.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

I know your on here 24/7, but your not following along. I've said many times that the Airtran guys should NOT have lost their CA seats. That's just my opinion, and it was my opinion from day one.

The rest of my post still stands. Percentage per company is not an accurate number...sorry.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I know your on here 24/7, but your not following along. I've said many times that the Airtran guys should NOT have lost their CA seats. That's just my opinion, and it was my opinion from day one.

The rest of my post still stands. Percentage per company is not an accurate number...sorry.

Ok Red, I'm glad you admitted those AT guys should not have lost their seats. Finally you make sense on that issue. As far as mixing in pilots, a ratio method probably would have worked well. An arbitrator probably would have used that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

They got a ratio

A generous one

 

[General Lee]

They got a ratio

A generous one

An arbitrator might disagree, a lot, and there would have been Capt slots due to some of their planes still being retained, along with future orders or options.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Some- I'm with red on that- and I don't like the transition and not rebidding the 717 -
But SLI wise- they got a generous deal

It's funny you're so opinionated about this general since in a truly fair world, delta would be taking the 717 pilots-
Mother of all bids, delta or SWA - choose-

 

[Ty Webb]

They got a ratio

A generous one

Wave, one day, when you finally wake up, and come out of your cave, blinking at the daylight, and scratching your nuts, maybe at that point you'll finally figure out that this was in many ways a loss for senior AirTran pilots.

Until that day, all of your snide remarks may make you feel better, but they don't do much for me.

 

[HowardBorden]

Please give an example of another airline that purchased another and didn't allow one Capt to keep his/her seat.

Chautauqua/Shuttle America-2005. And before you spout off that it doesn't count because it's not the same, you asked for an example and I provided one.

 

[Ty Webb]

Chautauqua/Shuttle America-2005. And before you spout off that it doesn't count because it's not the same, you asked for an example and I provided one.

Shuttle America was a bankrupt turboprop operator. You might as well be comparing the merger of Checkers and Carl Junior's. . . . I think some of the Counter guys got busted back to fry cook.

Since you couldn't come up with anything relevant, I guess you are conceding the point?

FWIW, last Saturday, I sat next to a recently-retired Delta Capt on my way home . . . He was coming home after visiting his daughter, who is also a Delta pilot. He seemed to think that the AirTran pilots were treated in a pretty shameful manner, and had this to say:

"During my career at Delta, we went through four mergers. All pilots remained within a few percentage points of where they were pre-merger".

No, it wasn't General Lee. :laugh:

 

[redflyer65]

Shuttle America was a bankrupt turboprop operator. You might as well be comparing the merger of Checkers and Carl Junior's. . . . I think some of the Counter guys got busted back to fry cook.

Since you couldn't come up with anything relevant, I guess you are conceding the point?

FWIW, last Saturday, I sat next to a recently-retired Delta Capt on my way home . . . He was coming home after visiting his daughter, who is also a Delta pilot. He seemed to think that the AirTran pilots were treated in a pretty shameful manner, and had this to say:

"During my career at Delta, we went through four mergers. All pilots remained within a few percentage points of where they were pre-merger".

No, it wasn't General Lee. :laugh:

The career expectations at each carrier where vastly different Ty.

When you wake up and realize that, maybe you'll feel better.

 

[scoreboardII]

Shuttle America was a bankrupt turboprop operator. You might as well be comparing the merger of Checkers and Carl Junior's. . . . I think some of the Counter guys got busted back to fry cook.

Since you couldn't come up with anything relevant, I guess you are conceding the point?

FWIW, last Saturday, I sat next to a recently-retired Delta Capt on my way home . . . He was coming home after visiting his daughter, who is also a Delta pilot. He seemed to think that the AirTran pilots were treated in a pretty shameful manner, and had this to say:

"During my career at Delta, we went through four mergers. All pilots remained within a few percentage points of where they were pre-merger".

No, it wasn't General Lee. :laugh:

You can tell the delta pilot to pound sand and mind his own shameless business, as his way of airlines (outsourcing) killed more careers than SWA ever did or will.

 

[HowardBorden]

Shuttle America was a bankrupt turboprop operator. You might as well be comparing the merger of Checkers and Carl Junior's. . . . I think some of the Counter guys got busted back to fry cook.

Since you couldn't come up with anything relevant, I guess you are conceding the point?

FWIW, last Saturday, I sat next to a recently-retired Delta Capt on my way home . . . He was coming home after visiting his daughter, who is also a Delta pilot. He seemed to think that the AirTran pilots were treated in a pretty shameful manner, and had this to say:

"During my career at Delta, we went through four mergers. All pilots remained within a few percentage points of where they were pre-merger".

No, it wasn't General Lee. :laugh:

A question was posed and it was answered with a recent factual example. But, because the decision of a neutral arbitrator does not fit your narrative, you disregard it as inconsequential and trot out the unverifiable musings from a retired Delta pilot; all while having the audacity to claim that the neutral arbitrator's decision is irrelevant. Classic.

 

[canyonblue]

FWIW, last Saturday, I sat next to a recently-retired Delta Capt on my way home . . . He was coming home after visiting his daughter, who is also a Delta pilot. He seemed to think that the AirTran pilots were treated in a pretty shameful manner, and had this to say:

"During my career at Delta, we went through four mergers. All pilots remained within a few percentage points of where they were pre-merger".

No, it wasn't General Lee. :laugh:

There are only two ways to be a Delta pilot and to have gone through four mergers.

1. Western-PanAm-Delta-Northwest

2. (Southern-North Central-Hughes Airwest)-Republic-Northwest-Delta

I can't believe you could find a pilot from either of those groups that remained within a few "percentage points" from their pre merger airline. Heck, go ask any Delta pilot who was a former Greenbook pilot if the Roberts Award was just a "few percentage points". The guy was most likely an original Delta Pilot who has a skewed perspective on how the pilots ended up on one master list and figured that Delta Express and Song were mergers that he went through.

And FWIW, I have a friend who went through the North Central-Republic-Northwest-Delta route. After we acquired AirTran we ran into each other and he assured me, base on his previous experience in mergers, that I should expect a 6 year bump in seniority. He said something about "Career Expectations".

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

It's really comical watching the Herb Turds get all defensive and jump on some anecdotal story about a Delta guy when trying to defend their seniority cramdown the throats of the AirTran guys.

Now that it's over they sing Kumbayahh like it never happened......

Hypocrites.

 

[waveflyer]

Sellout