SWA crew names released

[SWA Bubba]

Ok I'll try...I don't want to use too many pleonasms lest I sound pedantic, erudite or verbose.

Taxiing faster in a straight line is not, by itself always unsafe. But when being in a hurry becomes your norm, it opens the door for incidents like, say......oh I got one! You're cleared for takeoff and you rush on to the runway, cob the power without even waiting to see if you have symmetrical power, which you momentarily don't, and the next thing you know you are all **************************************** and elbows with the rudder pedals or god forbid, you actually are grabbing at the tiller, which in turn can cause all kinds of problems on the T/O roll. Like the Tower Air or CO incident proved.

Don't know about the Tower Air incident, but Continental's DEN incident was unrelated to taxi speed. They were in "position and hold" (old time terminology!), and subsequently cleared for takeoff. Then they started rolling. After > 2000' of rolling, either a gust in left crosswind, or insufficient rudder (or a combination of both) caused the aircraft to start veering to the left. At this point the Captain elected to "assist" the FO (who was the PF) by using the tiller somewhat, instead of either aborting or calling for more rudder. That caused the nosewheel to turn to the right, and essentially "rubbed off" the tires, since the plane was still going on the same path.

This incident was NOT related to taxi speed. NOT related to hurry-up culture. (Unless of course, you're suggesting that Southwest's culture is somehow to blame for other carriers' accidents).

Try again, Dan. Or not.

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

Don't know about the Tower Air incident, but Continental's DEN incident was unrelated to taxi speed. They were in "position and hold" (old time terminology!), and subsequently cleared for takeoff. Then they started rolling. After > 2000' of rolling, either a gust in left crosswind, or insufficient rudder (or a combination of both) caused the aircraft to start veering to the left. At this point the Captain elected to "assist" the FO (who was the PF) by using the tiller somewhat, instead of either aborting or calling for more rudder. That caused the nosewheel to turn to the right, and essentially "rubbed off" the tires, since the plane was still going on the same path.

This incident was NOT related to taxi speed. NOT related to hurry-up culture. (Unless of course, you're suggesting that Southwest's culture is somehow to blame for other carriers' accidents).

Try again, Dan. Or not.

Bubba

The point was the problem that using the tiller during the T/O roll was not a good thing (CO and see the Tower example above in waves post).

I made the point that being in hurry could lead to over use of the tiller on the T/O role. I did NOT say ALL tiller misuse was solely due to hurrying too much, just that hurrying too much COULD cause using the tiller too far into the transition from taxi to T/O?
It looks like you are saying because I said tiller misuse was bad and also said speeding could lead to tiller misuse that that equates to ALL tiller misuse examples being a result of speeding?

Again, CO and Tower are examples of what can happen when using the tiller on T/O.
Also, I maintain rushing could cause using the tiller too far into the T/O roll, period.
I did not say ALL tiller misuse was a result of hurrying but the examples (CO and Tower) do point out why the tiller should not be used for the T/O roll.

Clear as mud?

 

[Blue Dude]

"So you'd cover up a bad technique (not standing up the throttles to ensure symmetric thrust"

Not to offend, but I was referring to the case where the other guy is flying and cobs on the power before you can react...thought that was obvious...

Actually, you just made it worse. So the FO is PF, cobs on asymmetric power, and you "help" him with tiller input to stay on centerline? Not to offend, but that's nuts. That's a perfect formula for PIO, over-controlling, and confusion in the cockpit during a critical maneuver. Why not simply reject the takeoff if the FO is botching it up that badly? If you need to "help" with tiller input, he's already balling it up. Stop the plane and start over for crying out loud.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The point was the problem that using the tiller during the T/O roll was not a good thing (CO and see the Tower example above in waves post).

I made the point that being in hurry could lead to over use of the tiller on the T/O role. I did NOT say ALL tiller misuse was solely due to hurrying too much, just that hurrying too much COULD cause using the tiller too far into the transition from taxi to T/O?
It looks like you are saying because I said tiller misuse was bad and also said speeding could lead to tiller misuse that that equates to ALL tiller misuse examples being a result of speeding?

Again, CO and Tower are examples of what can happen when using the tiller on T/O.
Also, I maintain rushing could cause using the tiller too far into the T/O roll, period.
I did not say ALL tiller misuse was a result of hurrying but the examples (CO and Tower) do point out why the tiller should not be used for the T/O roll.

Clear as mud?

Hey, I agree with you about tiller use on T/O. But you directly related the Denver accident with Southwest taxi speeds. You seem to try to do that a lot! I simply pointed out that there was no correlation whatsoever between one guy's bad technique (at another airline!) and Southwest culture.

(And I reject your notion that the "rushing" you continually accuse SWA of necessarily leads to using the tiller too far into a T/O roll).

Bubba

 

[ron burgundy]

I watched many SWA CPs (including Check airman) keep their hand on the tiller until APPROACHING 60 knots on the T/O roll then transition the LH to the yoke....On landing I was told on UOE to keep a hand on the Tiller and S/B lever during the FO's landing...Hey I did not make these techniques up...As far as using the HUD on a VFR T/O, how is that dangerous?? You can see through the HUD and it does provide some protection...I certainly don't use it on MOST T/O's unless I am getting close to going to training, I should use it more...

I am an average pilot and willing to learn from my esteemed colleagues on FI, are these bad techniques??

I think the point was...weak pilots try to complicate things.

 

[ron burgundy]

Dan, I see your point, and yes my background (big wing landing in small places) does lend itself to anality when it comes to Center Line control, thanks for the explanation...

All I can say about taxiing fast, and its impact on tiller use on T/O is that the company does give us the option (to save fuel) to do a rolling take off and the tiller is helpful to me to get around the corner...

I see the logic now and I guess that you are correct. A rolling take off would save a lot more fuel than....SINGLE ENGINE taxi out (WTF).

 

[madjack]

We do SET now...

Not to kick a dead horse, but tiller input below rudder effective speed is not IMHO dangerous, could be wrong but sure doesn't seem that way to me...easy to control at slow speed and if something happens initially on T/O roll and rudder and toe pedal NWS ain't cutting it, why not use it?

 

[j41driver]

As a matter of fact the very last guy I flew with specifically stated: "Don't ever let me rush you. If you aren't ready we aren't ready." Trust me, this is very much more the norm than the "hurry up mindset" you are so fond of referring to.

This has been my experience also. I've felt rushed at AirTran a few times but not once at SWA.




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[waveflyer]

Dan, I find it odd that a Hawaiian A330 capt has such a hard on for how SWA operates- you're in left field with that my man.
And of all pilots, how much can you say you truly observe SWA operate? Compared to all the others out there. Nobody's picking up the torch you're passing- why not?

MJ, hey brother I just caught your post about understanding life as an FO here. I appreciate that man, but in all honesty- you guys who were FOs here 10-12 years ago had it much harder and apparently did the heavy lifting with changing the culture- bc it just hasn't been that bad in the right seat here. But I've heard stories that sounded tough to put up with.

I do think you should let go of that tiller help idea though. It does appear to be flat out wrong. As far as asymmetric thrust- you know what we're supposed to do on every leg- cl or ng- spool up to 40% stabilized and go from there- most of the spilt is recognizable and stable by then, but not going crazy at 40%- Then its pretty smooth and even from 40% on up to t/o thrust, even if youre pushing up a split hand-
I've had huge splits, at low speeds and never once been uncontrollable with nothing but feet on pedals-
I agree with blue above- I would not want tiller inputs from a capt without some kind of clear communication that you have the plane. Both of us putting in nose wheel inputs isn't safe.

 

[waveflyer]

And Dan, from my experience- we have a system in place here that accomplishes almost everything at the gate on quick taxis- which is why there is some pushback on SE taxi- we aren't used to the distraction-
I've been way more rushed at commuters and regionals where 5-7 legs is the norm. Natural pressure that just comes from 8 hours of flying packed into a hub and spoke 14 hour day. I think you think it ought to be as slow and regal as your 330- but that's not reality for a lot of us.
You wanna know the weird part. When a guy intentionally slows down, sometimes he succeeds in getting both him and me out of our rhythm and it works against us. Kind of how some of our faster taxiers are smoother than some of our slowest. Thanks for your concern, but I think you've forgotten what it's like to do multiple leg days