SWA being called PREDATORY of others' misfortune

[Andy Neill]

De-regualtion has failed airline customers AND employees.

How is it that airline customers who have a great deal more choice of flights and much less expense in getting them have been failed by de-regulation? As for employees, there are many more airline employees (even after the worst of the furloughs) post de-regulation than prior. I hear new employees lament that they will never enjoy the life their predecessors had pre-deregulation, but most of them wouldn't have been able to get a job in the much smaller airline industry anyway.

 

[Flopgut]

Stupid thread and a waste of about 10 minutes. Many of the same moronic SWA bashers, jumping on yet another SWA themed thread. Quick, someone in the "Warbirds Forum" just said something about Southwest. Better hurry over quick to enlighten the masses, and one last thing, Braniff SUCKED! uke:

The Wright is gone, and you didn't win!

Braniff operated the Concorde. You don't turn on your autothrottles.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Stupid thread and a waste of about 10 minutes. Many of the same moronic SWA bashers, jumping on yet another SWA themed thread. Quick, someone in the "Warbirds Forum" just said something about Southwest. Better hurry over quick to enlighten the masses, and one last thing, Braniff SUCKED! uke:

I for one like it when the SWA bashers start unloading; it reminds me of how well we're doing! Keep it coming and switch to full automatic as you can put more rounds on the target.

 

[scoreboardII]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

 

[JumpJetter]

you know what's funny about SWA....lowest CASM adjusted for stage length and still got more CASM to save.

--still taxiing on two engines.....money to be saved....
---still not using autothrottles.......money to be saved....
----RNP coming in the next few years.....money to be saved....
-----winglet equipped -300s......more money to be saved....

"don't hate the playa...hate the game"

 

[Freddie Spencer]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=11735047

 

[Rook]

Crappy Country is better than any good HipHop.

Au Contrare mon frere!

But as far as the rest of the thread goes... good read.

 

[Helmsalee]

How come no one has mentioned AA's part in the Braniff dimise?

 

[328dude]

How come no one has mentioned AA's part in the Braniff dimise?

Because no one bashes AA on here They are having their own issues, which is WN's fault, and they are therfore facing the same problems as everyone else which is also WN's fault.

In other words, it's all WN's fault therfore no bashing of the legacys.

Come on man, where you been? These are the rules of FI.

 

[Flopgut]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

Lead RNP airline?? You might lead in RNP use increase, but that's only because you've got so much catching up to do.

We (CAL) don't charge for Cokes. Nor do we for pillows, blankets or meals. And I believe our RNP implementation is noteworthy.

 

[Flopgut]

I hear new employees lament that they will never enjoy the life their predecessors had pre-deregulation, but most of them wouldn't have been able to get a job in the much smaller airline industry anyway.

Jobs? Perhaps. Careers? Certainly not.

Our economy provides aerospace the chance to lead the world in: Air frieght, aircraft manufacturing (commercial and bizjet), and fractional. Even this economy's LCC do well. But what about legacies? With all the regulation trained on them in this supposed de-regulated environment they've been excluded from doing the same. I don't think we can ascertain what the career would have been, or how big it would have been, the further we go. But I think these other aerospace sectors give us a glimpse. And I vehemently believe it is hardly blastphemy to point out that SWA has perhaps not been the greatest airline ever. It's just an opinion guys.

 

[nimtz]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

Having just done RNP approach training, I'm really curious to hear how Southwest will be the 'lead' RNP airline within the next 36 months? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

 

[firstthird]

I'm not sure that SWA will ever lead anything where technology is concerned, but, apparently we've hired some technical pilots from Alaska to implement the 'super' RNP that Alaska is doing up there down here in the lower 48. West Jet is also doing some of those approaches above the border, but so far, there are none in the lower 48.

I doubt we'll be 'leading' in that we can't even do gps overlays or gps T's or constant rate approaches yet. But supposedly we're going to get there with the whole fleet (even the 300's) sometime around 2013 (just far enough in the future to be plausible and for the guilty parties that started all of this to be safely retired before any 'issues' come up)

the name is stupid, RNP. most planes already have ANP and RNP and Rnav approaches. but apparently this is what Alaska calls it's super RNAV arrivals, the ones with curving final approach segments, rolling wings level at 300 feet, ILS mins, that kind of stuff. far beyond any current GPS approach in the lower 48.

So, in summary, I'm not sure I buy the fact that we'll be LEADING anything but supposedly we are going to get there. And since no one is doing this 'RNP' in the lower 48, I doubt CAL is either. I think the terminology confuses many, including me. But a regular RNAV approach (LNAV/VNAV) is NOT RNP as these Alaska technical pilot guys define it.

 

[firstthird]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

 

[Flopgut]

CAL lands North and South in Quito, Ecuador via RNP approaches.

 

[nimtz]

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

CAL just started sim training on domestic RNP, so everyone should be qual'ed in a year. We've been doing them down in Quito for sometime, but that's special airport. Now as far as I know, as long as the other guy is qualified then off you go.

Your right that the terminology is a pain, but essentially RNP to me means lower mins and position verification comes from the box only. The difference comes down to RNAV (GPS) vs RNAV (RNP) approach. GPS approaches can't be fancy, but RNP gives you the lower mins and the curved segments that you mentioned.

The company doesn't issue us every RNP approach, so there are few places where you could actually do one. Don't have my charts with me, but they only practical one is 28R in SFO instead of the Tiptoe Visual. There might be more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

They did right by hiring the Alaska guys since they pretty much invented this alphabet soup. It will take a good while though to get a/t and vnav pounded into everyone's head. That all has to be smooth before getting into the RNP element. Hence why I was questioning the 'leader' remark. Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

 

[MountainFreak]

No, but John Galt was. That's the whole point of bringing his name up. The character John Galt had no time for people who thought that the successful should share their success with the mediocre and inept. The thrust of this thread is "If SWA was managed as poorly as the other airlines, they'd be losing money too." Well....yeah, but they're not. They're succeeding because they're getting it right. More power to 'em.

Atlas Shrugged is one of my favorites, it is a classic. It is also fiction.
Saying we should live in John Galt's world is like saying we should live in a Hobbit-topia because we like Lord of the Rings.

Anyway, as far as predatory pricing, it is all in how the regulators define it. What if the airline is making money, but losing on that city-pair where they are trying to put out Frontier?
What about back in the day, if AA is making money on the international routes, but losing money out of Dallas in order to put out Braniff? Do fuel hedges count, or do they have to be making money on an operational basis? I don't know, and I doubt any of us know how the current regulators define it.

This is all talking point though, because even if SW is dumping seats (I think they are walking a fine line), no one is going to stop them. Like you said, they are too well run!

 

[firstthird]

Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

Supposedly the Alaska guys are going to design approaches into places like MDW where we could use the wind favored runway all the time regardless of ORD's runways if we had a shorter final segment. or maybe as a replacement for visuals at some of our mountainous airports (RNO, BUR, ABQ). and for the single engine climb out procedures too.

but, you're right, we've got to master a/t and LNAV/VNAV first; and seeing as autobrakes only took us 3 years, I don't have super high hopes.

I'm not surprised that CAL is going to be 4 or so years in front of us. Wonder when our training dept will wake up and realize that we're not 'industry leading' in any technology endeavor. not that there is anything wrong with that, just seems juvenile to run around talking about industry leading this or that when in fact we're still flying 700s like they were 1960's airplanes.

 

[bouttime]

Now I get it. Clever management of a business is predatory while ineffectual management is victimhood.

Who is John Galt?

Very wise words! SW has found its own "Reardan Metal"

 

[CA1900]

If you want to see what RNP can do, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHF9rPWFXzw

It's a 95-mile, serpentine approach to an airport in China that's surrounded by mountains. Truly impressive.