SWA being called PREDATORY of others' misfortune

[Hose A. Jiminez]

While the argument about incompetent management at other airlines is certainly true, and cant be argued.

Does anyone remember about 10 years ago when the legacy carriers were still strong, SW was pitching a fit about predatory pricing to congress. They won. So basically its ok for SW to undercut everyone, its just not ok for a legacy to do the same.

History is a pain isn't it.

FR8mastr, I dont recall the exact instance you are talking about, but that doesnt mean it didnt happen. Perhaps a little explaination on what does and does not constitute "predatory pricing" will shed some light for you.

- AA going into DAL to "undercut" Legend with prices below their own (AA) operating cost... PREDATORY

- WN "undercutting" F9 at DEN while still covering their own (WN) costs... NOT PREDATORY

Any company is free to price their product wherever they wish with out regard to their competitors price as long as theyre covering their own costs.

History is only a pain when you dont understand it.

Hope this helps.

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

what pisses me off about southwest is that they aren't a really good transpo option for the country. Try to book seattle to nyc on southwest!

they cherry pick routes. like leeches.

On the other hand they are now the best service out there.

SEA-ISP, with 1 stop in MDW? Granted it will take an extra hour of driving to get to Manhattan when driving from ISP compared to LGA.

 

[Reebo]

No offense to anyone on this post but I see hipocracy. In alot of ways what WN is doing to Frontier in DEN what Wal-Mart does to Middle-America or as a vulture does to a dying racoon. As pilots we justify it because we admire pilots compensation in that company and that WN has been succesful in its ventures. We usually blame the other company WN competes with as if WN has done no wrong. I disagree with that argument. WN just hits the coup de grace. It would be interesting if NOW a days they would find their OWN routes instead of flying routes to run other companies to the ground. Then again that what competition is all about. I hear regional guys hating CHQ or Skywest for doing the same thing WN does but they think WN is ok because they pay their pilots better. While I hope my current company keeps growing I would hate for the growth of my company to consist of the lay off of friends and former colleages. Just an opinion.

Time for a little education.

ANY route Southwest flies is a "Southwest" route. It is operated with "Southwest" aircraft, flown by "Southwest" pilots, loaded by "Southwest" rampers. Those on board are served by "Southwest" flight attendants. Get the point.

CHQ and Skywest don't have ANY routes. They fly under the "United Express" or "Delta Connection" banner.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Plus, you'd have an upside-down hamburger.

:laugh: Beat me to similar commentary....

 

[The Prussian]

what pisses me off about southwest is that they aren't a really good transpo option for the country. Try to book seattle to nyc on southwest!

they cherry pick routes. like leeches.

Hey, kung fu suu....a wise master once told me..."engage your brain before you engage your mike". Believe me....if Southwest could cherry pick routes (like leaches), they wouldn't be going ISP.

 

[StaySeated]

This is possibly the stupidest thread in the history of flightinfo.

 

[CA1900]

This is possibly the stupidest thread in the history of flightinfo.

Depressingly, not even in the top 10.... :laugh:

 

[Colonel Savage]

...Does anyone remember about 10 years ago when the legacy carriers were still strong, SW was pitching a fit about predatory pricing to congress. They won. So basically its ok for SW to undercut everyone, its just not ok for a legacy to do the same.

History is a pain isn't it.

Air Tran sued Delta about ten years ago for predatory pricing and won. Shortly after that A/T started growing like a weed.

 

[UALjan15]

Red,
I don't understand. Isn't SWA out there to make as much money as they can for their shareholders? Or are they providing a service to the consumers out of the goodness of its heart? If they are in the money business, shouldn't SWA be making as much money as they possibly can using the supply/demand model?
I seriously doubt your company is keeping fairs low out of the goodness of its heart.
I think SWA has done a great job of marketing itself as the discount carrier even though you often charge as much as the next guy. I don't think you have the ability to just raise fairs to keep making a profit.

If you had some money in SWA stock over the past 5 years (like I did), you might understand their business plan a little better. No, they absolutely do not maximize revenues by jacking fares up. From what I've been able to observe, they set fares to generate a certain rate of return/profit. Because of the predictability of their contracts, including fuel futures, they can "engineer" to a reasonable degree, what their profit will be. From a Wall Street perspective, this is kind of boring, which I think explains how boring the stock has been for several years.

I'll agree that they don't always have the lowest price, but it usually isn't too far off, and the rate for last-minute travel is usually the best in my experience. You're probably right in that they have the reputatation for the low fares, which is not always reality. Notice that their fare is never on Orbitz, Travelocity, etc. That way, it never has to stand up to direct comparison. Still, they got that low fare reputation for a reason, and it included offering a ton of bargain fares, as well as totally avoiding the practice of gouging the business traveller.

 

[Griff]

“Our People are our single greatest strength and our most enduring longterm competitive advantage.”
- Gary Kelly, CEO Southwest Airlines

 

[Whataburger]

. Notice that their fare is never on Orbitz, Travelocity, etc. That way, it never has to stand up to direct comparison.

I understand that the reason for not being on Orbitz, etc. is not because we dont want to let someone have a direct comparison. The reason is that we dont feel that we have to pay the fee associated with being listed on a website such as these.

 

[SkiDawg]

It's not predatory, it's smart business planning. Other airlines like UAL, AA, DAL took advantage of opportunities in the late 80s and early 90s; I'm sure they were not referred to as "predatory", it's SWA's turn now.

JOBU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sweet avatar!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jhill]

Ahhh-kay....tell us then....what ran Braniff out of Love Field?

And where did you get your information?

And was that person actually involved in the decision making process at Braniff?...or just some line guy, fending off all the rumours like everyone else?

You have the floor....

It was Braniff's misjudgment of what the industry was going to look like after deregulation. They ran themselves out of bussiness with bad decisions and over extending themselves. It is a classic case study if you bothered to read anything about the industry you work in.

 

[jhill]

donvag,

Your post hints at re-regulation of airline routes.

The USA is a capitialistc country. SWA didn't "DO" anything to Frontier. Frontier could have grown in a strong profitable manner but for whatever reason it didn't and the journey down that road started before SWA started adding routes. It's a liberal left wing rant to start bashing a company for being succesful and competing well and strongly -- it's what made this country what it is today. Darwinism in business needs to continue (even though the bankruptcy laws throw a curve into it).

Are you going to lobby Congress to not allow a CVS drugstore be built within 3 miles of a Walgreen's? Is that the way you want the United States to operate?

By the way, Wal Mart has done much for this nation. Many of the people who work there would otherwise be on welfare. Many of the lower income mothers who shop there can better afford shirts and shoes for their kids whereas before WalMart they couldn't afford to clothe their children as well. People can afford to feed their familes better due to WalMart. It's made life better for people and helped far more people than harmed.

Ever hear the arguement as to who has helped more people -- Mother Teresa or Bill Gates?

The answer is Bill Gates. He caused to employ millions of people around the world providing income for people to take care of themselves and provide good medical insurance -- not just Microsoft but all the ancillary companies that arose around Microsoft such as computer manufactures. His work also improved productivity dramatically thus lowering costs for everyone -- so get the big picture and don't become some left wing liberal when it comes to how the capitalstic system in this country works. It's a tough world out there but that's the way it is and it's still far better than socialism or communism. People who lose jobs think it's the end of the world and it's certainly not fun and it is stressful -- I know -- I've been there. But history has shown those people often end up working at a stronger more secure company later. There are plenty of ex-Braniff, ex-Midway, furloughed UAL and AA at SWA and they are happier than they ever were at previous emplyers. Life does go on.
tankerclown -- SWA may not have to reduce costs. How about they raise fares instead? By then they will be more monopolistic in their markets and be able to do that to cover costs. They are keeping fares relatively low now while they can to make things difficult for the competition and solidify their markets. They can continue to do this for the next several years then if necessary start raising fares more.

BRAVO. AT LEAST ONE OF YOU GET IT.

 

[waka]

Done wrong for being successful, remaining profitable, remaining a strong competitior?? If you really think that, than you are leaning towards being a left wing socialistsic liberal.

Straw man argument alert!

That is a mis characterization to say the least. Stop listening to so much talk radio.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

It was Braniff's misjudgment of what the industry was going to look like after deregulation. They ran themselves out of bussiness with bad decisions and over extending themselves. It is a classic case study if you bothered to read anything about the industry you work in.

I knew that...but there are some who will believe to their dying day...that somehow, SWA had something to do with the decisions that the Braniff management made....

...how absurd..

 

[Flopgut]

It was Braniff's misjudgment of what the industry was going to look like after deregulation. They ran themselves out of bussiness with bad decisions and over extending themselves. It is a classic case study if you bothered to read anything about the industry you work in.

Braniff's Harding Lawrence believed de-regulation was going to fail, so his response was to launch hundreds of new destinations thereby siezing new route authority. Harding Lawrence was not wrong, just off by 30 or so years! De-regualtion has failed airline customers AND employees.

 

[Flopgut]

Ahhh-kay....tell us then....what ran Braniff out of Love Field?

And where did you get your information?

And was that person actually involved in the decision making process at Braniff?...or just some line guy, fending off all the rumours like everyone else?

You have the floor....

If there had been one commercial use D-FW airport, or perfectly equal use of multiple D-FW airports, there would have been no controversy and no Wright Amendment. AA would be better off, probably Braniff and even Legend still flying. But there would be no SWA. Without SWA, de-regulation is a failure. That should be abundantly clear.

 

[JFReservist]

When the hedges run out it won't matter because there won't be anyone flying. I for one am not looking forward to the end of the world.

Not so fast, lots of bureaucracy and fine print to work on before we can officially end the world. Besides, the (insert extinct society here) calender runs out in Dec of 2012... Looks like we have at least four more years of SWA threads ahead of us.

 

[canyonblue]

Stupid thread and a waste of about 10 minutes. Many of the same moronic SWA bashers, jumping on yet another SWA themed thread. Quick, someone in the "Warbirds Forum" just said something about Southwest. Better hurry over quick to enlighten the masses, and one last thing, Braniff SUCKED! uke:

 

[Andy Neill]

De-regualtion has failed airline customers AND employees.

How is it that airline customers who have a great deal more choice of flights and much less expense in getting them have been failed by de-regulation? As for employees, there are many more airline employees (even after the worst of the furloughs) post de-regulation than prior. I hear new employees lament that they will never enjoy the life their predecessors had pre-deregulation, but most of them wouldn't have been able to get a job in the much smaller airline industry anyway.

 

[Flopgut]

Stupid thread and a waste of about 10 minutes. Many of the same moronic SWA bashers, jumping on yet another SWA themed thread. Quick, someone in the "Warbirds Forum" just said something about Southwest. Better hurry over quick to enlighten the masses, and one last thing, Braniff SUCKED! uke:

The Wright is gone, and you didn't win!

Braniff operated the Concorde. You don't turn on your autothrottles.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Stupid thread and a waste of about 10 minutes. Many of the same moronic SWA bashers, jumping on yet another SWA themed thread. Quick, someone in the "Warbirds Forum" just said something about Southwest. Better hurry over quick to enlighten the masses, and one last thing, Braniff SUCKED! uke:

I for one like it when the SWA bashers start unloading; it reminds me of how well we're doing! Keep it coming and switch to full automatic as you can put more rounds on the target.

 

[scoreboardII]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

 

[JumpJetter]

you know what's funny about SWA....lowest CASM adjusted for stage length and still got more CASM to save.

--still taxiing on two engines.....money to be saved....
---still not using autothrottles.......money to be saved....
----RNP coming in the next few years.....money to be saved....
-----winglet equipped -300s......more money to be saved....

"don't hate the playa...hate the game"

 

[Freddie Spencer]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=11735047

 

[Rook]

Crappy Country is better than any good HipHop.

Au Contrare mon frere!

But as far as the rest of the thread goes... good read.

 

[Helmsalee]

How come no one has mentioned AA's part in the Braniff dimise?

 

[328dude]

How come no one has mentioned AA's part in the Braniff dimise?

Because no one bashes AA on here They are having their own issues, which is WN's fault, and they are therfore facing the same problems as everyone else which is also WN's fault.

In other words, it's all WN's fault therfore no bashing of the legacys.

Come on man, where you been? These are the rules of FI.

 

[Flopgut]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

Lead RNP airline?? You might lead in RNP use increase, but that's only because you've got so much catching up to do.

We (CAL) don't charge for Cokes. Nor do we for pillows, blankets or meals. And I believe our RNP implementation is noteworthy.