SWA/ATA revisited

[swa737-700]

Note: The following represents only my personal opinion. It is not, and is not intended to be a statement issued by the ALPA represented ATA pilot group.

AQ Pilot,

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. A “fair” merge between you and WN would be OK with you, but you have no problem with the ATA pilots being stapled.

Nice.

Then we have Tanker AssClown, who appears to be a space ship pilot from a galaxy far, far away that seems to think someone is going to pay FO’s a Captains wage in our current economic environment. And thus, a new nick-name is born.

But wait, there’s more. We’ve got WN tools who think we should interview for an opportunity to fly our airplanes on our routes, all done on the bottom of your list.

How do I phrase this and maintain political correctness?

I’ve got it:

Please feel free to conduct a thorough interview of my sphincter at you earliest convenience.

The ALPA pilots of ATA request only fair treatment. This is the intent of the Allegheny/Mohawk precedence as well as the more recent Bond/McCaskill amendment. This is the minimum we will accept, and we will expend all available ALPA resources at our disposal to ensure that this is what we receive. This is not an unreasonable position.

Tailwinds,
Dave

PS: I posted having not read the response from “In the wind”.

You are correct Sir. We are an incredibly experienced group of world-wide charter pilots who are victims of inept management. It’s really that simple and you are dead-on.

I cannot speak to Capt Seth’s wife.

I could offer my wife to the WN pilot group, but to date, my codeshare brothers have never done me any harm.

ATADave,

As a former TWA pilot, I hope your group is not stapled...assuming this purchase rumor is correct. Having said that, I don't want to burst your alpo bubble, but do you have any idea how alpo represented the TWA pilots during the aa fiasco? Get educated my friend. alpo intentionally screwed the TWA guys, who just so happened to be the second airline to join alpo many many years ago. Your group is way too small for alpo to worry about. I am not sure the senators from Missouri will help much either. Your pilot group had better be flexible and think big picture/long term. If there is any way around the new rule, any legal team will figure it out.

 

[PCL_128]

Your group is way too small for alpo to worry about.

An ATA pilot is an ALPA Executive Vice-President. They won't be forgotten.

 

[HalinTexas]

After almost a week of self-imposed exile to take a camping vacation with the family to the Texas Hill Country, I'm back.

I've sat back and read all of the posts here. I want to vomit.

The incorrect facts being slung around here astound me.

First, SWA was third in line to take over ATA assets. We'd all been better off if the AWA deal came through. (They were the second offer. It was way better than Airtran's.) Many believe that SWA was responsible for the failure of that deal. No one really knows. Also heard that Dougie didn't want the B737's and as a result Boeing was the first to pull their financing. Domino effect.

Second, John Denison was the CFO of SWA back in the 1980's. I believe he was instrumental in Gary Kelly's rise. He came into ATA as CEO and reorganized. He built nothing. We pulled out of every city that competed with SWA. After 30+ years of flying to Florida, we pulled completely out. We served MCO, PIE, SRQ, RSW, FLL and MIA. He appointed his successor, Subodh Karnik, ex-DAL, as the new CEO in Dec. of 2006, and retired to a BOD job of ATA. He remains the COB of GAL, and after SK's departure last week is back in charge of ATA's day-to-day ops. Time and time again, we've been told that the "codeshare" and the military flying is our future focus. SK built nothing, failed and was "resigned." Numerous other managers and employees were escorted out, including our COO, Gary Elmer. (Thank God.)

SWA still pulls a lot of strings around here. When ATA Holdings changed names to Global Aero Logistics and bought World Holdings, Herb Kelleher was instrumental in that transaction. This from a retired AF general on the World Holdings BOD.

Third, there are just under 200 pilots on the B737's (12 of them) and a similar number on the B757's (10 of them). Nearly all but he delusional think that the WB's are not part of any deal. No one at ATA is suggesting DOH or any variation of such. Allegeny/Mowhawk and the Bond/McGaskill amendments along with the Nicolli (sp) rendering of the USAir case pretty much have set a standard and precedence. Any relative integration formula won't hurt upgrades much. Which leads me to.....

Fourth. The real hope for SWA to remain profitable is revenue growth. GK has said it over and over the last year or two. He's the reason SWA remains where it is. Not the SWA employees. He's the one with the drive an vision to push for new horizons. He's a leader. Pretty good for a bean-counter. Let's face it. With SWA's high costs, even with the fuel hedges continued success, there isn't much hope for expansion in the "48" to bring significant revenue enhancement. While there is some potential there, and will be growth there, the real money is outside the "48." Grow revenue without great increases in expense. An ATA acquisition does this on the cheap.

Fifth. The "preferential interviews" mentioned above expired in April of 2005. Forty to 50 were interviewed less than a dozen were hired. Many have been hired since then, a couple are in the pool now, but lots more were rejected. On a related note, SWA has been hiring many of our most experienced FA's as supervisors to same. These had the int'l experience to help with the transition to that type of flying.

Sixth. I personally have given up over $250,000 in income since 2004. At tenth year pay, I presently make less than a SWA 2nd year FO who has less than half my experience, and I ain't all that experienced comparatively speaking. SWA employees have been enjoying profit-sharing partially derived from the ATA codeshare. No profit at ATA. The rapid growth at SWA over the last 3-4 years largely has been at MDW, MCO and LAS. These were significant ATA cities. So, you can see that without ATA's competition, if you want to call it that, SWA has prospered, particularly in MDW. The SWA pilots and other employees have already prospered in the deal.

In conclusion. Everyone's sh!t stinks. No one is the superior aviator by virtue of their uniform styles and paychecks. I've sat on many different jumpseats at many different airlines. Flown with many different aviators and every company has a similar amount of morons flying the line every day. This includes but is not limited to ATA and SWA. If we're going to demand and expect respect for the profession, we d@mned well better act like it. I've seen more unprofessionalism, as well an ignorance, on this site than I care to think about. It makes me sick.

If this deal should come to pass, ATA brings airplanes, not just pilots. Surprise, but there are many ATA pilots that don't want to work for SWA and may not stick around. So the upgrade time may not be effected very much if at all. It brings tremendous opportunity for all. It brings fear to many others. I've heard such comments from AAL and DAL pilots.

Good luck.

 

[atafan]

Hal,

Thank you!

However: Dennison has gone on record with our MEC Chairman that SWA has no interest in buying ATA. Will a third party buy ATA and wet lease to SWA ? Will ATA just go TU?

As the Jet Engines Spin....

 

[HalinTexas]

Hal,

Thank you!

However: Dennison has gone on record with our MEC Chairman that SWA has no interest in buying ATA. Will a third party buy ATA and wet lease to SWA ? Will ATA just go TU?

As the Jet Engines Spin....

Yep, just got his e-mail. SWAPA will just have to lust after someone else.

And the stomach turns.......stress......need beer......:beer:

 

[Tanker Clown]

Hey Hailin, if it's such a bad deal and your are making less at 10 years than a 2 year FO, why not quit?

My buddy does some of the interviews for SWA and said that the ATA guys seemed to have a "This is owed to me" attitude at the interview. He also said a lot of them appreared sloppy.

They got the preferential interviews, but that doesn't mean a sure hire.

Sorry for where things have ended up...but you've been there 10 years. No one put a gun to your head and made you stay there. You could have improved your situation on many different occasions.

 

[Esprit]

[ He also said a lot of them appreared sloppy.

Better to appear uneducated than sloppy I guess.

ESPRIT

 

[Tanker Clown]

A first impression is a lasting impression.

Is it that hard to have your suits dry cleaned and pressed, your shirt ironed, and your shoes polished for an interview?

 

[HalinTexas]

Hey Hailin, if it's such a bad deal and your are making less at 10 years than a 2 year FO, why not quit?

My buddy does some of the interviews for SWA and said that the ATA guys seemed to have a "This is owed to me" attitude at the interview. He also said a lot of them appreared sloppy.

They got the preferential interviews, but that doesn't mean a sure hire.

Sorry for where things have ended up...but you've been there 10 years. No one put a gun to your head and made you stay there. You could have improved your situation on many different occasions.

You're correct. I've made my choices. But suppose this: You're married. Mortgage based on the last time you were an FO making a little more than you're making now. (Was worse) Have child-support and a dumb-ass step-son. I've also had some other family issues to deal with. I'm also 42 now.

Now you've upgraded to CA in 2003. Making good money. BK pulls it out from under you. You take a 60% paycut. I'm now making just a little less than I was in 2002. To start over, you have to take another 50% paycut. It will now take you another 3-5 years to regain that paycut. SWA, UPS, and FEDEX are the only jobs out there that beat that average. I have interviewed, but I've been picky because of the above reasons. I've also been rejected. Many times.

We are also in another industry down-turn and a recession. TWA is gone. Since 2003 UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL have all filed BK. These were all the big players. These were supposed to be the best jobs out there. They've all taken hits. If I jump ship now, I could be furloughed in 6 mos. There are no guarantees in this business. No, I suppose I could have jumped right after I was displaced. I was really pissed at the time, so emotionally I was ready. I was NOT financially ready. I hate debt, so, don't tell me to borrow money.

I've made my choice to stick it out largely for my family's best interests, (How could I ask them to sacrifice more?) but also I wanted to have faith that there were some that believed ATA could again be something. I was misled and probably put on rose-colored glasses, I don't know. However, I had faith. After all, we had a war going on, troops to haul and SWA was on our side!

 

[Tanker Clown]

That's fair. But that said, it doesn't mean you have to go down with the ship this time. Even with rose colored glasses, the situation isn't good.