SWA and Age65... lets get this straight.

[Judge]

If the rule gets changed ALPA doesn't have to adopt it do they? ALPA could contractually still put 60 retirement age?

On another note, Flopgut, were you turned down by SWA?
just wondering...

 

[StarrBuck]

SWAPA'a official stance on changing age 60 may or may not represent the majority of the 5000+ pilots on the present seniority roster. Current union executives do not plan for another age 60 support vote in the near future, or so our VP said in June.

My gut feel is that a vote right now to continue funding for a change to age 60 would fail. Previous surveys and votes have always been worded in a "touchy-feely" way to bring out an emotional response...and thus an emotional vote. The only time SWAPA voted on something approaching an actual change to age 60, it was convincingly trounced. This was a vote for a test of SWA pilots flying past age 60 and was to be part of a study by Johns Hopkins University. When the actual impact on FO's and junior captains was revealed, the vote was overwhelmingly against the test. This was back in the 1999-2000 timeframe. The union continued to put forth votes to support change, but again they were worded more toward the "principle of discrimination" and failed to bring out the negative financial impact it would have on junior pilots and the company. They finally got one of these "emotional" votes to pass during an election vote in 2003, and have not had another vote since. Bottom line: A few men got what they could spin into a "mandate" to change age 60 by SWAPA, and now refuse to readdress the issue.

I think everyone knows most guys are perfectly capable of flying commercial airliners until age 65. The rule was financially driven when it was created, and after 50+ years of medical advances and lifestyle improvements it now clearly does not pass the common sense test. But...and this is a big BUT...changing the rule will have very negative initial impact on junior pilots and future airline pilots,as well. Until the entire system operates under a higher retirement age for at least 30 years, there will be varying degrees of negative impact.

BOTTOM LINE: I don't believe the majority of SWA pilots support changing age 60, but the current union execs will not allow another vote on the issue. Stay tuned next January after the election of a new union president. But don't hold your breath...representing the majority at SWAPA hasn't always been a priority.

Dane Bramage has pretty much nailed the truth here.. I'm not going to get into a pissin' match here about it, but last year when I contacted my union reps, and asked about having a revote I was told by my rep that if we had a revote now, and had to change gears on this project it would look foolish! Hmm.. soooo.. its better to stick you head in the sand, and pretend that everyone here supports the change.. yeah, that's it...

Tejas-Jet.. I'm not sticking up for whoever wrote that letter, however maybe you need to re-read his numbers.. He is saying that a we never received a majority vote in favor of changing the rule. The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If the rule gets changed ALPA doesn't have to adopt it do they? ALPA could contractually still put 60 retirement age?

When the rule gets changed, each pilot group ( depending on the level of each group's collective unity) will be free to negotiate whatever the will is of each individual group is, when they get to the amendable date of their contract.

ALPA doesn't wave a majic wand....each group negotiates for themselves.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas-Jet.. I'm not sticking up for whoever wrote that letter, however maybe you need to re-read his numbers.. He is saying that a we never received a majority vote in favor of changing the rule. The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

Weren't there were around 4000 pilots at SWA when the vote was taken? Of that 4000, only 40% cared enough to vote and 60% of that 40% voted in favor of backing the age change. Thats a majority to me. Can't do much for those that don't/didn't take the time to vote.

Now, another vote? It can happen....just get 25% of the pilot group to sign a petition....present it to the SWAPA BOD....and you'll have your re-vote....it's not like it hasn't been done around here before....

Tejas

 

[scoreboard]

The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

Uh, yes it is a majority, if you dont vote, you dont count. However, I would like to see this voted on again.

 

[DH2WN]

Uh, yes it is a majority, if you dont vote, you dont count. However, I would like to see this voted on again.

Is there viability that this will be phased in over several years? I don't want to work until 65 but this will put the kibosh on that idea.

Voted NO!

 

[B6Driver]

After the age 60 rule, what can we expect as the next thing SWA (or another LCC) wants to wreck in this business?

Just wondering.

What a pin head!
It's the fault of all the LCC's that are the down turn of this industry?
Look in the mirror to find one of the many culprits.

 

[Stan]

When the rule gets changed, each pilot group ( depending on the level of each group's collective unity) will be free to negotiate whatever the will is of each individual group is, when they get to the amendable date of their contract.

ALPA doesn't wave a majic wand....each group negotiates for themselves.

Tejas

You can negotiate anything you want. But if the age 65 rule gets changed then over 60 pilots that are forced to retire because of their contract will sue and win. This happend in the 80's with FE's, there were age discriminations lawsuits that gave rise to the 80 year flight engineer.

 

[Stan]

What a pin head!
It's the fault of all the LCC's that are the down turn of this industry?
Look in the mirror to find one of the many culprits.

Not the downturn of the industry, but the profession. When your independent union (SWA) or Pilot group (JBLU) work to change FAR's, either through the FAA or Congress, that a majority of Pilots in this country don't support they should be called out. I am all for independent unions, I happen to be in one, but I would scream loudly if our union went rogue and tried to push through a change to the FAR's that would be a step backward for our profession.

 

[SWA/FO]

Not the downturn of the industry, but the profession. When your independent union (SWA) or Pilot group (JBLU) work to change FAR's, either through the FAA or Congress, that a majority of Pilots in this country don't support they should be called out. I am all for independent unions, I happen to be in one, but I would scream loudly if our union went rogue and tried to push through a change to the FAR's that would be a step backward for our profession.

You mean to tell me little ol' SWAPA is kicking every other pilot unions a$$ in? What the hell, are you guys paying for then? Yall, argue pretty dame good on flightinfo.com. Why don't you talk to your union guys. Looks like my 1% is enough to change the World! Oh and change is coming.