SWA and Age65... lets get this straight.

[Peanut gallery]

65?

Being somewhat familiar with the current process and legislative process, my question is very simple. Where is every body getting ages that it will be raised to. The current push is to abolish any age restriction and leave the high end up to the industry.

Just my .02

 

[Tejas-Jet]

BOTTOM LINE: I don't believe the majority of SWA pilots support changing age 60, but the current union execs will not allow another vote on the issue. Stay tuned next January after the election of a new union president. But don't hold your breath...representing the majority at SWAPA hasn't always been a priority.

You could force a vote....just like the other guy did on the contract negotiating extension.

Go out, on your own time, get 25% of the membership to sign your petition, then present it to the BOD. OF course, remember, while the other guy got 25% of the membership to sign his petition.....when it came to a vote, only 20% voted with him....go figure....

Tejas

 

[Flopgut]

I disagree. I have been doing this job for 20 years and it is an incredibly easy job. Commuters add a lot of stress on themselves, but that is voluntary. Today I am on day four of four but I'm doing fine. I've got a couple of good magazines and a sudoku. It is a mental job, not a physical one. We are paid not for what we do, but what we are capable of doing. That is where experience counts.
Yes life is hectic when you are young and have a family. When you approach retirement, your life is different. For some guys working is quality of life. I know one guy who ten years ago was a burnout, but today his kids are all grown and his wife travels with him two or three trips a month and they have a great time seeing and doing things they always talked about doing. I know several other guys who live for the overnights and taking the crews out for a good time. It is all about attitude.
People who keep working actually live longer than those who don't.
Granted every person is different, but don't disparage those who enjoy this incredibly easy job. Those who don't like it or want to leave early are welcome to. Life changes. Flexibility is good. A lot of guys will tell you that they enjoyed the job much more in their 50's then they did in their 40's.

Next week I do a 25.5 hr 4 day with two red eyes. That's pretty easy compared to some of the red eye IRO flights to South America I've done (11 hrs flying in 13 hrs duty, all night long). Or the 6 day sojourn the guys do on the 767, leaves IAH to HNL to Guam then Tokyo and turn it all around. Or how about the 13+ hr stuff to China? Not to mention Rio. Yeah, this job ain't physical at all!

Sorry to interrupt, I know you SWA guys are enjoying a little "I luv myself" time.

 

[Flopgut]

Being somewhat familiar with the current process and legislative process, my question is very simple. Where is every body getting ages that it will be raised to. The current push is to abolish any age restriction and leave the high end up to the industry.

Just my .02

Since your somewhat familiar tell me this: Are they not smart enough to have some kind of age limit? Think about how messed up this job is going to get without one! In order to envision what it is most likely to become, imagine that the rule change will allow age 60+ pilots to come back. Floodgates would open, and anyone that could pass a medical would go back to work. There would likely be furloughs for legacy pilots with less than 50% of the list junior to them. The average age of an airline pilot would be around, at least 50, maybe 55! Some fleets at legacies would be seniority stratefied into a scheduling nightmare as all 777 crews will be 60+ yrs old. Absent a manditory retirement age, this is what we are headed for. Eventually, airline flying will only be done by extremely old pilots and hiring will only occur when one of the flames out!

 

[Flopgut]

and leave the high end up to the industry.

Let me tell you how that's going to go: Everyone will still be hired as an FO. The difference will be that pilots will begin command evaluation at a point NOT determined in seniority order. The company [industry] will use a different methodology that factors age to insure adequately qualified captains. And to that end, not only will they select captains for upgrade, they will select them for retirement!

If those were the terms in place for your career, you could erase at least half that stuff in your profile.

 

[Falconjet]

You'd have a little over 1000 under you.

Thanks.

FJ

 

[StarrBuck]

found this on another fourm..

Response to SWApA request for Age 60 Blitz

Honorable Senator ________________________
Honorable Congressman__________________


I am a Southwest Airlines pilot and at the request of my union, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, (SWAPA) am writing to humbly request that you vote NO on any legislation put forth to change the FAA mandated safety rule regarding the maximum age of an airline pilot.

A very vocal minority in my union has managed to convince some of your brethren that this rule is unfair and about discrimination. Nothing could be further from the truth. All airline pilots are subject to the Age 60 rule and the vocal minorities you now witness complaining about the Age 60 rule are the same pilots that benefited from it for the last 30 plus years.

Age 60 is not about discrimination. It is about money. The pilots you will see on Capitol Hill crying discrimination represent an extreme minority of the overall airline pilot population. SWAPA, my union represents a paltry 4900 pilots of which less than half voted to change the Age 60 rule. Our association leaders intentionally withheld valuable information prior to this vote as they wished for an outcome that would allow them to claim they had a mandate from the membership to lobby congress to change the Age 60 rule.

ALPA (The Airline Pilots Association) and APA (The Allied Pilots Association) together represent over 50,000 pilots, the bulk of the pilot labor force in the Airline industry. Both of these unions understand the Age 60 rule, its necessity and are vehemently opposed to any change.

Please don’t allow yourself to be caught up in the hyperbole and rhetoric that is being spouted by the vocal and extreme minority that is attempting to change this longstanding and very safe FAA rule.

Thank you for your continued support.


Sincerely,

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Starrbuck,

This does not make for a very credible letter. Does anyone have any survey to support the vocal minority statement. Yes , vote is aroud three years old but if you wish to state it as fact, be preparted to back it up. With the exception of the "It is about money" part the entire statement is opinion, which is fine if presented that way. It would be much more credible if there was one factual statement of why mandatory retirement at age 60 is a good idea.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Response to SWApA request for Age 60 Blitz
SWAPA, my union represents a paltry 4900 pilots of which less than half voted to change the Age 60 rule.

Man....this letter sounds like whining. Couldn't the writer make it sound more professional?

In addition, his numbers are a bit inaccurate. What he doesn't mention is that around 1000 of the 4900 he mentions weren't at SWA when the vote was taken.

And, about 60% of the few who cared enough to vote, wanted to get the age changed. Thats a majority to me.

Maybe the writer would be better served if he found like minded pilots and they started their own Capitol Hill blitz every 2 or 3 months like the guys in favor of this change take the time to so.

Face to face visits carry more weight than a whiny letter like the example put forth.

Tejas

 

[SWA/FO]

Sorry to interrupt, I know you SWA guys are enjoying a little "I luv myself" time.

Its always "I luv myself" time. Everyday 24/7.

 

[Judge]

If the rule gets changed ALPA doesn't have to adopt it do they? ALPA could contractually still put 60 retirement age?

On another note, Flopgut, were you turned down by SWA?
just wondering...

 

[StarrBuck]

SWAPA'a official stance on changing age 60 may or may not represent the majority of the 5000+ pilots on the present seniority roster. Current union executives do not plan for another age 60 support vote in the near future, or so our VP said in June.

My gut feel is that a vote right now to continue funding for a change to age 60 would fail. Previous surveys and votes have always been worded in a "touchy-feely" way to bring out an emotional response...and thus an emotional vote. The only time SWAPA voted on something approaching an actual change to age 60, it was convincingly trounced. This was a vote for a test of SWA pilots flying past age 60 and was to be part of a study by Johns Hopkins University. When the actual impact on FO's and junior captains was revealed, the vote was overwhelmingly against the test. This was back in the 1999-2000 timeframe. The union continued to put forth votes to support change, but again they were worded more toward the "principle of discrimination" and failed to bring out the negative financial impact it would have on junior pilots and the company. They finally got one of these "emotional" votes to pass during an election vote in 2003, and have not had another vote since. Bottom line: A few men got what they could spin into a "mandate" to change age 60 by SWAPA, and now refuse to readdress the issue.

I think everyone knows most guys are perfectly capable of flying commercial airliners until age 65. The rule was financially driven when it was created, and after 50+ years of medical advances and lifestyle improvements it now clearly does not pass the common sense test. But...and this is a big BUT...changing the rule will have very negative initial impact on junior pilots and future airline pilots,as well. Until the entire system operates under a higher retirement age for at least 30 years, there will be varying degrees of negative impact.

BOTTOM LINE: I don't believe the majority of SWA pilots support changing age 60, but the current union execs will not allow another vote on the issue. Stay tuned next January after the election of a new union president. But don't hold your breath...representing the majority at SWAPA hasn't always been a priority.

Dane Bramage has pretty much nailed the truth here.. I'm not going to get into a pissin' match here about it, but last year when I contacted my union reps, and asked about having a revote I was told by my rep that if we had a revote now, and had to change gears on this project it would look foolish! Hmm.. soooo.. its better to stick you head in the sand, and pretend that everyone here supports the change.. yeah, that's it...

Tejas-Jet.. I'm not sticking up for whoever wrote that letter, however maybe you need to re-read his numbers.. He is saying that a we never received a majority vote in favor of changing the rule. The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If the rule gets changed ALPA doesn't have to adopt it do they? ALPA could contractually still put 60 retirement age?

When the rule gets changed, each pilot group ( depending on the level of each group's collective unity) will be free to negotiate whatever the will is of each individual group is, when they get to the amendable date of their contract.

ALPA doesn't wave a majic wand....each group negotiates for themselves.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas-Jet.. I'm not sticking up for whoever wrote that letter, however maybe you need to re-read his numbers.. He is saying that a we never received a majority vote in favor of changing the rule. The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

Weren't there were around 4000 pilots at SWA when the vote was taken? Of that 4000, only 40% cared enough to vote and 60% of that 40% voted in favor of backing the age change. Thats a majority to me. Can't do much for those that don't/didn't take the time to vote.

Now, another vote? It can happen....just get 25% of the pilot group to sign a petition....present it to the SWAPA BOD....and you'll have your re-vote....it's not like it hasn't been done around here before....

Tejas

 

[scoreboard]

The actual numbers were 40% voter turnout, with 60 percent in favor of change.. that means that 1764 folks voted in favor out of a possibility of 4900 votes.. that's NOT a majority.

All I'd like to see is another vote.. but as Dane Bramage explained.. its not going to happen!

Uh, yes it is a majority, if you dont vote, you dont count. However, I would like to see this voted on again.

 

[DH2WN]

Uh, yes it is a majority, if you dont vote, you dont count. However, I would like to see this voted on again.

Is there viability that this will be phased in over several years? I don't want to work until 65 but this will put the kibosh on that idea.

Voted NO!

 

[B6Driver]

After the age 60 rule, what can we expect as the next thing SWA (or another LCC) wants to wreck in this business?

Just wondering.

What a pin head!
It's the fault of all the LCC's that are the down turn of this industry?
Look in the mirror to find one of the many culprits.

 

[Stan]

When the rule gets changed, each pilot group ( depending on the level of each group's collective unity) will be free to negotiate whatever the will is of each individual group is, when they get to the amendable date of their contract.

ALPA doesn't wave a majic wand....each group negotiates for themselves.

Tejas

You can negotiate anything you want. But if the age 65 rule gets changed then over 60 pilots that are forced to retire because of their contract will sue and win. This happend in the 80's with FE's, there were age discriminations lawsuits that gave rise to the 80 year flight engineer.

 

[Stan]

What a pin head!
It's the fault of all the LCC's that are the down turn of this industry?
Look in the mirror to find one of the many culprits.

Not the downturn of the industry, but the profession. When your independent union (SWA) or Pilot group (JBLU) work to change FAR's, either through the FAA or Congress, that a majority of Pilots in this country don't support they should be called out. I am all for independent unions, I happen to be in one, but I would scream loudly if our union went rogue and tried to push through a change to the FAR's that would be a step backward for our profession.

 

[SWA/FO]

Not the downturn of the industry, but the profession. When your independent union (SWA) or Pilot group (JBLU) work to change FAR's, either through the FAA or Congress, that a majority of Pilots in this country don't support they should be called out. I am all for independent unions, I happen to be in one, but I would scream loudly if our union went rogue and tried to push through a change to the FAR's that would be a step backward for our profession.

You mean to tell me little ol' SWAPA is kicking every other pilot unions a$$ in? What the hell, are you guys paying for then? Yall, argue pretty dame good on flightinfo.com. Why don't you talk to your union guys. Looks like my 1% is enough to change the World! Oh and change is coming.

 

[FoxHunter]

You can negotiate anything you want. But if the age 65 rule gets changed then over 60 pilots that are forced to retire because of their contract will sue and win. This happend in the 80's with FE's, there were age discriminations lawsuits that gave rise to the 80 year flight engineer.

You are correct, but not one individual has been required to fly one day past age 60. You will now have a choice to retire at age 60, or continue to age 65, 64, 63, 62, 61.:beer:

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I disagree. I have been doing this job for 20 years and it is an incredibly easy job.

Widow’s Son,

I know it is probably hard for you to see past your bubble, but not everyone in the industry flies all the easy stuff. Not everyone is flying day turns as seems to be your case.

Have you been to Europe lately? How about the North Pacific? How ‘bout a month of double all-nighters down to South America? When’s the last time you had not only your destination, but your alternate go down at the same time after flying for 10 hours and being up all night? You got to love those forecasters in the deep south. When’s the last time doing you did an ADF down to mins? How ‘bout an approach to a snowy, short runway with a tailwind?

It only takes a small miscue to ruin your whole day let alone your career.

Easy my ass!! I’m sorry we are not all God’s gift to aviation like you.

NO TO AGE 65!!

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Stan]

You mean to tell me little ol' SWAPA is kicking every other pilot unions a$$ in? What the hell, are you guys paying for then? Yall, argue pretty dame good on flightinfo.com. Why don't you talk to your union guys. Looks like my 1% is enough to change the World! Oh and change is coming.

No but you guys are the only organized pilot group trying to change the rule. Actually this wouldn't even be an issue right now if SWAPA wasn't pushing the issue. If the rule changes it will be because of SWAPA lobbying . The majority of other airline pilots don't want the rule to change and ALPA and the APA are lobbying against it. Also it sounds like maybe the majority of SWAPA doesn't want the rule changed now but your leadership does.

 

[Booster]

AA767AV8TOR your Today, 06:55 post seems to make a good case for the young (what age is that?)pilots to fly those trips outside Widow's Son bubble. The good news: the older pilots are in many cases more senior and can/do bid away from them (if they think it is beyond their capability). So the increase in retirement age should not be a problem for Widow outside his bubble as you describe it.

 

[FoxHunter]

No but you guys are the only organized pilot group trying to change the rule. Actually this wouldn't even be an issue right now if SWAPA wasn't pushing the issue. If the rule changes it will be because of SWAPA lobbying . The majority of other airline pilots don't want the rule to change and ALPA and the APA are lobbying against it. Also it sounds like maybe the majority of SWAPA doesn't want the rule changed now but your leadership does.

I think you will find that the UAL group has had the greatest impact for change in the last six months. Not leaving out those from CO, USAIR, NWA, AA, FDX, UPS, plus others.

 

[tzskipper]

Maybe the solution lays in tying the manditory retirement age of pilots, to the minimum age required by the Federal Goverment to access Social Security and Medicare....

Skipper

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

AA767AV8TOR your Today, 06:55 post seems to make a good case for the young (what age is that?)pilots to fly those trips outside Widow's Son bubble. The good news: the older pilots are in many cases more senior and can/do bid away from them (if they think it is beyond their capability). So the increase in retirement age should not be a problem for Widow outside his bubble as you describe it.

Booster,

Your logic defies me. Again, this is the SW pilots living in their bubble and not seeing how age 65 + will impact the rest of the industry.

International pays more (read – impacts their Final Average Earnings) at most of the legacies consequently; the very senior guys are flying the long European, Pacific, and South American trips. Make no mistake about it; those trips age the hell out of you. There are a few pilots that chase quality of life, but the majority chases the pay. Look at your own operations, how many pilots choose to fly high when they can just do the minimum guarantee and take the corresponding hit in pay.

This is another reason why a lot of the senior guys want to go to a longevity based pay scale. That way they can bid the easy trips and still receive their top pay while all the crap (read – harder trips) go to the junior pukes at the lower pay scales.

As to your statement about bidding away from the harder flying, very few pilots can adequately judge their own skills. We all have egos. It’s like the old professional athlete knowing when to hang up the cleats.

As was stated on another thread, the average SW pilot is retiring with almost $3 million. At a 10% ROI, that is almost $300,000 a year and that’s without turning one wheel and screwing the rest of us.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I think you will find that the UAL group has had the greatest impact for change in the last six months. Not leaving out those from CO, USAIR, NWA, AA, FDX, UPS, plus others.

That's a big negative FOXHUNTER -- ALPA, as a majority, is still against any increase in retirement age.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Tejas-Jet]

No but you guys are the only organized pilot group trying to change the rule. Actually this wouldn't even be an issue right now if SWAPA wasn't pushing the issue. If the rule changes it will be because of SWAPA lobbying . The majority of other airline pilots don't want the rule to change and ALPA and the APA are lobbying against it. Also it sounds like maybe the majority of SWAPA doesn't want the rule changed now but your leadership does.

A few posts on FlightInfo.com doesn't make for a majority. And, you sday that ALPA and APA are lobbying against it, but their credibility gets shot everytime a Capitol Hill lobbying blitz takes place and ALPA and APA members are there lobbying for the age change.

Tejas

 

[Stan]

A few posts on FlightInfo.com doesn't make for a majority. And, you sday that ALPA and APA are lobbying against it, but their credibility gets shot everytime a Capitol Hill lobbying blitz takes place and ALPA and APA members are there lobbying for the age change.

Tejas

Feel free to negotiate with your company for whatever you can get in your contract. However when you lobby congress to change a rule that will impact every airline pilot in America it is just the same as JBLU pilots trying to change the 8 hour block rule.