SWA and Age65... lets get this straight.

[Widow's Son]

>>Guess I touched a nerve with the "demonstratively superior" comment.<<

No, a nerve gets touched when a comment stikes home because of its veracity. What you touched was a funny bone.

>>Let's not discuss the safety/regualtory stuff.<<

Even though it is a huge part of the actual "service" provided to the customer, I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about that.

 

[Flopgut]

I am so ready for this legislation to pass so we can move on. I think it is going to be great when it does and 10 yrs from now no one will care. Who on this site remembers what it was like 40 yrs ago before the age 60 rule came into effect?

Don't worry be happy you will all get your shot at that extra 1 mil.

I'm so ready for SWAPA to grow up and start acting like a union. You've correctly identified that this about money. But to term it an "extra 1 mil" is where you goof. It costs everyone who wants to retire at 60 about a .30 cents on the dollar to get you that money. That's BS! You want an extra 1 mil.? then you tell SWA that's what you want through your CBA! SWA is making all the money right now that others once did, you get some of it. Get some extra going away money for retirement at 60 and leave the rule alone. How does that not make sense to you?

 

[Flopgut]

>>Guess I touched a nerve with the "demonstratively superior" comment.<<

No, a nerve gets touched when a comment stikes home because of its veracity. What you touched was a funny bone.

>>Let's not discuss the safety/regualtory stuff.<<

Even though it is a huge part of the actual "service" provided to the customer, I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about that.

I don't want to discuss the safety/regulatory stuff as a favor to you. If we scale the scope/complexity of SWA to any other operation you won't fare too well.

Look, you've got a great product, but it in no way compares to a full service airline. And that's fine! As I have written before, in a previous career I was a member of Rapid Rewards and I like it very much. I earned a free ticket quicker than my coworkers. But I was disappointed when I saw my coworker, who participated in another program and who had waited longer, head off to Octoberfest in Germany. I didn't save enough flying SWA to buy that ticket. Keep it real on service, you SWA folks get carried away.

 

[Mach 80]

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Ours run hot meals to every seat through two galleys and do a real good job.
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I can't remember the last time I got a hot meal on a domestic flight on a legacy airline.

 

[slaquer5]

I do a lot more than gripe on here.

I am disapointed with ALPA on this. Results of a comprehensive study are clear, yet hundreds of ALPA pilots show up on Washington recently and lobby en mass and ALPA doesn't try to shut em down? Not happy, they've heard from me.

There is an imbalance of favor in the airline world right now, it will correct itself. There was a time when you were pretty close to becoming an ALPA carrier.

Brother you are wacked , tell me when we where close to being ALPA. ALPA sucks and I think just about everone knows that. We at SWA never even had a vote for ALPA. I am not a big fan of our SWAPA but we are cleaning house.

 

[Flopgut]

Brother you are wacked , tell me when we where close to being ALPA. ALPA sucks and I think just about everone knows that. We at SWA never even had a vote for ALPA. I am not a big fan of our SWAPA but we are cleaning house.

When ALPA was lobbying CAL, around the same time FDX joined. The ALPA team, which included Duane Woerth, said the next group they wanted on board was SWA. They indicated that there was a bit of dialog going on. You were close to getting the ALPA pitch. At that time, you might have gone for it.

 

[Flopgut]

I think Flopgut was turned down either from an interview or after an interview from SWA. I've only been on here for a couple years, but he continually bashes SWA and never lets on who he works for. Just a hunch...

I never applied at SWA. If I did, they would turn me down. I know I'm not SWA material.

I work for CAL. Foremost however, I'm a fan of this business. I don't like to do any company specific chest beating and I have a hard time tolerating it from others. That's why I rag on SWA, they are the most overt chest beaters on here.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I'm so ready for SWAPA to grow up and start acting like a union. You've correctly identified that this about money. But to term it an "extra 1 mil" is where you goof. It costs everyone who wants to retire at 60 about a .30 cents on the dollar to get you that money. That's BS! You want an extra 1 mil.? then you tell SWA that's what you want through your CBA! SWA is making all the money right now that others once did, you get some of it. Get some extra going away money for retirement at 60 and leave the rule alone. How does that not make sense to you?

Flopgut,

That’s exactly what I have been talking about. Not one Southwest pilot has been able to articulate exactly why there are taking political action to change the rule. Why are they being this selfish and self centered with thousand of pilots still furloughed? Though individual pilots from the legacy carriers can go to Washington, the official positions of both APA and ALPA is NO to any increase in retirement age. SWAPA is the only major union pushing for the rule change and has been for a long time.

1) Is it a money issue?? I was told the average SW pilot is retiring with close to $3 mil.
2) Is it a flying issue?? If they want to fly so badly, why not just rent a 182 or fly overseas?
3) Is it a discrimination issue?? Explain to me why age discrimination at age 65 is any different than age 60?

We keep getting told how great everything is over at Southwest. Fine, I’m happy for them, but if it’s that great, then why do they feel the need to have to fly to age 65. If they want an extra million $$ then they should negotiate it in their own collective bargaining agreement.

Go ahead and keep telling me how awesome everything is over at Southwest, but something is terribly messed up when they have to go through political channels to fly into their retirement years. That alone tells me Southwest is not paying their pilots an adequate retirement plan. Talk about being in denial.

What is probably happening at Southwest, just as the 37 year UAL pilot mentioned in the article, pilots are pissing away their normal pay and then finding out they don’t have enough for retirement. That’s why Southwest needs some form and/or combination of A & B plans. I know their management has got them scared about different types of pension plans, so if they don’t like DB or DC plans, they should increase their 401K match. 7.3% is just not enough. It should be up around 10% – 15%. Furthermore, they just can’t keep counting on profit sharing especially with the bulk of their fuel hedges running out in less than 18 months.

Southwest is just starting their own contract negotiations – retirement should be at the top of their list.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

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Ours run hot meals to every seat through two galleys and do a real good job.
----------------------

I can't remember the last time I got a hot meal on a domestic flight on a legacy airline.

When's the last time you flew first class?

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Flopgut]

When the rule gets changed, each pilot group ( depending on the level of each group's collective unity) will be free to negotiate whatever the will is of each individual group is, when they get to the amendable date of their contract.

ALPA doesn't wave a majic wand....each group negotiates for themselves.

Tejas

Each group negotiates for themselves?! Why make this a negotiating item? I'd like to work on other things. Instead of changing this rule, and send every other pilot group reeling, you guys take care of yourselves. Take some money and buy retirees a top-hat bond for extra dough in retirement. Then buy some Cessnas and form a flying club. Although that would mean a second aircraft type...could screw everything up.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut,

That’s exactly what I have been talking about. Not one Southwest pilot has been able to articulate exactly why there are taking political action to change the rule. Why are they being this selfish and self centered with thousand of pilots still furloughed? Though individual pilots from the legacy carriers can go to Washington, the official positions of both APA and ALPA is NO to any increase in retirement age. SWAPA is the only major union pushing for the rule change and has been for a long time.

1) Is it a money issue?? I was told the average SW pilot is retiring with close to $3 mil.
2) Is it a flying issue?? If they want to fly so badly, why not just rent a 182 or fly overseas?
3) Is it a discrimination issue?? Explain to me why age discrimination at age 65 is any different than age 60?

We keep getting told how great everything is over at Southwest. Fine, I’m happy for them, but if it’s that great, then why do they feel the need to have to fly to age 65. If they want an extra million $$ then they should negotiate it in their own collective bargaining agreement.

Go ahead and keep telling me how awesome everything is over at Southwest, but something is terribly messed up when they have to go through political channels to fly into their retirement years. That alone tells me Southwest is not paying their pilots an adequate retirement plan. Talk about being in denial.

What is probably happening at Southwest, just as the 37 year UAL pilot mentioned in the article, pilots are pissing away their normal pay and then finding out they don’t have enough for retirement. That’s why Southwest needs some form and/or combination of A & B plans. I know their management has got them scared about different types of pension plans, so if they don’t like DB or DC plans, they should increase their 401K match. 7.3% is just not enough. It should be up around 10% – 15%. Furthermore, they just can’t keep counting on profit sharing especially with the bulk of their fuel hedges running out in less than 18 months.

Southwest is just starting their own contract negotiations – retirement should be at the top of their list.

AA767AV8TOR

I know some pretty senior SWA types, some look like they have money, some don't. An airline buddy of mine (non SWA) who knows these guys better told me they DO NOT have that much dough. I didn't believe it, I thought they were rolling in it. There is another thread on here where we covered it. Bottom line: I guess the guys with 20-25 years over there have around 1-1.5m, and they don't think it's enough.

 

[canyonblue]

Give it a rest. Pilots from Continental and American telling Southwest pilots how we need to negotiate, frickin priceless. I wouldn't take advice from you guys on where to eat in the terminal. uke: uke:

 

[canyonblue]

Fine, I’m happy for them, but if it’s that great, then why do they feel the need to have to fly to age 65.

I know this is a strange concept for you guys to grasp, coming from where you guys work, but most Southwest pilots actually enjoy coming to work. Even if you gave these guys $100,000 a year to stay home most would choose to keep flying at Southwest. You guys cannot relate to that since you have never experienced it in your lives. I can also see where you guys are coming from, the airlines you work at and the environment you are in every day at work. I can see you guys wanting out at 55, and if I was employed at your carriers I would probably feel the same.

 

[Flopgut]

Give it a rest. Pilots from Continental and American telling Southwest pilots how we need to negotiate, frickin priceless. I wouldn't take advice from you guys on where to eat in the terminal. uke: uke:

Hey, It's not like you don't need a little help. You can't even say for sure that a majority of SWA pilots support the change at this point. And it seems none of you are going to press it because you don't want to embarrass SWAPA! I'll give it a rest when the crap your up to isn't opposite to the wishes of a majority of airline pilots. Stop screwing with my job, how's that?

Another thing: Your comment about CAL and 1983...What's your deal? You like Lorenzo? You like what he did? You think any other pilot group would have faired better with a corporate raider like that? That's a total separate issue, be glad you never had to deal with that sort of thing.

 

[Flopgut]

AA767aviator: Check out the thread that led to this: "SWA pilots aggressively push age 65". Pretty candid discussion of pay takes place.

 

[Flopgut]

I know this is a strange concept for you guys to grasp, coming from where you guys work, but most Southwest pilots actually enjoy coming to work. Even if you gave these guys $100,000 a year to stay home most would choose to keep flying at Southwest. You guys cannot relate to that since you have never experienced it in your lives. I can also see where you guys are coming from, the airlines you work at and the environment you are in every day at work. I can see you guys wanting out at 55, and if I was employed at your carriers I would probably feel the same.

Ok, I know your trying to be fair, but here is the deal: This job is built on a certain career span. We have to overhaul all pay and benefits if this goes through. And I'm concerned about what your going to do next. Bnhntn's equation is: 5yrs is = 1M. Well, lets say Jet Yellow shows up in 5-7 years and everybody's pay metrics change. Are pilots going to simply want to re-mortgage another 5 years? Then Jet Purple shows up? So on and so forth. Are we going to have to work til we are 75 for the same career dollars we had at 60?

And more to your point: Do you think SWA is always going to be the amusement park it is now? I'm not hoping to see it change for you, but what if it does? You have a lot of years left to work, this change happens and you HAVE to work past 60 to avoid a hit. It's bad legislation with short term thinking.

 

[scoreboard]

Stop screwing with my job, how's that?

.

Come on Flop, don't shoot the messenger, a little group called ICAO, which last time I checked we sign up to, changed the rule, not SWA, not SWAPA. If you at your company want it to stay 60, vote for it that way. Simple.

Again, I'm neutral to tending for change on 60, arguments for both sides. No, I don't know what a majority of SWAPA think, and i dont care what they think, what will happen will happen.

 

[scoreboard]

And more to your point: Do you think SWA is always going to be the amusement park it is now?

Nope. Changes already in the wind to make us just like every other Legacy WRT costs. Our only hope is our people factor, which is sadly not all I had hoped for, but by no means is less than stellar.

 

[scoreboard]

This job is built on a certain career span.

No, its not. Tell that story to your neighbor and see him laugh you back to your house. This job is built on seniority, you could end the ride any day from a medical to a FAR bust, to who knows what.

 

[Flopgut]

No, its not. Tell that story to your neighbor and see him laugh you back to your house. This job is built on seniority, you could end the ride any day from a medical to a FAR bust, to who knows what.

Bingo! It is about seniority, but this rule change gives it away. It makes seniority mean nothing. Maybe I should have said the earnings are based on a certain span. I think if we change the rule we should abandon seniority. That's how most ICAO countries do it. Of course, most senior captains who favor this change aren't too interested in that. Interesting.

Don't be getting down about SWA, that's my job! You'll be a captain and the dollars are on their way. It's the ones that come after us that are getting screwed we have to look out for, and do right by the ones who have already left.

 

[Bake]

So Flop, Let me get this straight. You are fighting for the guy below you??? The one who hasn't been hired yet??? Are you not fighting somewhat for yourself too??? Just curious. Are you a captain at CAL? I am completely against change in the age rule however it is for my own personal benefit. I am thinking only for myself. Screw the rest of you. When I become a capt I will fight long and hard to change this rule to 55. Please someone save me from myself???????????????????????

 

[canyonblue]

Another thing: Your comment about CAL and 1983...What's your deal? You like Lorenzo? You like what he did? You think any other pilot group would have faired better with a corporate raider like that? That's a total separate issue, be glad you never had to deal with that sort of thing.

CAL flew in '83 because pilots crossed a picket line, forever changing the landscape of the pilot profession. Had CAL either won that strike or liquidated, the future of the airline pilot would have played out much different. That did not happen and what transposed was the first nuclear bomb on this profession, like it or not. A little Texas airline did not, and does not now dictate the life of the airline pilot, you all do. Just like in '83 you want a scapegoat, and you blame Southwest. If we did dictate the pilot profession you wouldn't be making less than a Southwest pilot today. And yes, Lorenzo SU#KS!!!

 

[Flopgut]

CAL flew in '83 because pilots crossed a picket line, forever changing the landscape of the pilot profession. Had CAL either won that strike or liquidated, the future of the airline pilot would have played out much different. That did not happen and what transposed was the first nuclear bomb on this profession, like it or not. A little Texas airline did not, and does not now dictate the life of the airline pilot, you all do. Just like in '83 you want a scapegoat, and you blame Southwest. If we did dictate the pilot profession you wouldn't be making less than a Southwest pilot today. And yes, Lorenzo SU#KS!!!

The strike failed because hundreds of Braniff pilots crossed the line. Their lack of gainful employment was occasioned by events surrounding the WA. That's thinking big picture. Ask anybody, if the Braniff pilots weren't out of work, ALPA probably wins the strike.

Here's what I've learned working at CAL: In deperate times (like 83) there's no lack of desparate people. They will do whatever they feel they have to or think they have to. What remains is for good people to try to do the right thing whenever they can. And that's a lot harder than you might think. Additionally, I learned that CAL is basically a startup airline after the second BK. Two things I learned from a TI striker, there is no finer example of an airline pilot.

 

[Flopgut]

So Flop, Let me get this straight. You are fighting for the guy below you??? The one who hasn't been hired yet??? Are you not fighting somewhat for yourself too??? Just curious. Are you a captain at CAL? I am completely against change in the age rule however it is for my own personal benefit. I am thinking only for myself. Screw the rest of you. When I become a capt I will fight long and hard to change this rule to 55. Please someone save me from myself???????????????????????

Nobody's got anything until we've all got something. I'm not a captain but I could be. I'm not worried about myself, I'm really not too worried about anybody with a "mainline" (whatever that is these days) job. What I am concerned about is the ones that are washed out of the bottom of this gig and the profession in general. Chewbacca is going to upgrade before some of these guys! And we're going to let guys who already are captains sit there five more years? BS!

 

[dashtrash]

And we're going to let guys who already are captains sit there five more years? BS!

That's right. Up and out grandpa!