SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[Ty Webb]

Ty what good would that do? 1989 SWA is not buying AAI. 2011 SWA is buying 2011 AAI.

Career expectations. Mature company versus growing company.

 

[islandhoper]

...; sadly, you have no excuses for the sorry state of your contract, except for the recalcitrance of your management, I suppose. Happily, both of those detriments to your career will be fixed by becoming part of SWAPA. Welcome aboard!

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

So, what is the "sorry state" of our contract?

 

[ASADFW7]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

 

[PapaWoody]

Ha-ha. While you're at it, let's see a comparison of SWA pay and benefits in 1989 (your 16th year) relative to AirTran in 2011 (our 16th year). Our upside, with 50 orders (33% increase over present fleet) and just scratching international markets, is much higher than a stagnant, 40 year-old carrier.

We all respect what SWA has built, but if you really want to compare us to Shuttle America/Chataqua, you're just kidding yourself, and insulting us.

I'm not comparing you to Shuttle America nor Chautaqua (sp?), nor is it my intention to insult anyone at AirTran. I'm saying in that case of one regional acquiring another regional (versus one LCC acquiring another LCC in our case), that the contractual disparities are similar, that those disparities were germane to that particular integration, and, imo, our disparities will play a part in our integration, because they are objective examples of the differences in career expectations.

As for comparing SWA pay and benefits in 1989 with your current, adjusted for inflation, I would be more than willing to take that bet. I'll work on the numbers and get back to you. Your upside, in your 16th year, was a 33% increase over your present fleet in I believe an approx. 7 year period, was probably similar to Southwests increase in their fleet size between 1989-1996. Again, I'll get back to you on the numbers.

As for comparing your 16 year old "upside" carrier to our stagnant, 40 year old carrier - well, that's where we disagree. Comparing Southwest at the 16th year has no bearing on the discussion, in fact, because we are talking about the value of a Southwest career attained in 1993 through the present to an AirTran career attained during the same time. Yes, at some point in our past we may have been at the same place as you guys (I don't think so, but could be wrong) but that is irrelevant. The assertion that I am trying to make is that throughout the existence of ValuJet/AirTran, it has always been (objectively) harder to get hired at Southwest, paid more to work for Southwest, been a more secure job environment at Southwest, been a more desirable place to work at Southwest - in essence, a more valuable career at Southwest than AirTran. Denying these facts, which are based on objective criteria, seems disingenuous and counter-productive to honest discussion of this particular integration.

When your seniority at AirTran is translated into seniority on the SWAPA master seniority list, those factors should and probably will make a difference in where it falls. To do otherwise would be unfair and inequitable to every Southwest pilot, imo. I'm glad that you respect what SWA has built, but a little respect for what SWAPA has achieved would be nice also.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[PapaWoody]

So, what is the "sorry state" of our contract?

Ok, I apologize for the statement "sorry state of your contract". After reading it, it came off as a put-down that I didn't intend. I just meant that relative to ours and the industry in general, it was on the low side.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[Ty Webb]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

Agreed. Well put. Most of us respond on here when our sensibilities are offended. . . . So, the most outrageous post get a response, the reasonable ones get ignored, and only the most extreme positions get any "play" on here, unfortunately.

I'm glad that it will be the NC/MC committees settling this and not us Flightinfo folks.

Regards,
TW

 

[jball2]

Great post Ty!


I've said it twice already. A negotiated agreement will come by the end of July! Welcome to the family!

jb2

 

[elcid]

Does this mean you're gonna take a dump in my lunchbox if it goes DOH or better?

Nope, not at all. I'll buy you a beer and eat crow. I'll buy you a beer regardless, and welcome you to the best airline I think anyone could hope to work for. I don't think the eating crow part is gonna happen though, fwiw.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed. Well put. Most of us respond on here when our sensibilities are offended. . . . So, the most outrageous post get a response, the reasonable ones get ignored, and only the most extreme positions get any "play" on here, unfortunately.

I'm glad that it will be the NC/MC committees settling this and not us Flightinfo folks.

Regards,
TW

I think this is the best assessment of FI and this SLI debate I've seen.
Reality will be that most of us will only argue about who's buying the next round!

 

[Ty Webb]

I think this is the best assessment of FI and this SLI debate I've seen.
Reality will be that most of us will only argue about who's buying the next round!

Thanks. I see glimmers of hope throughout this that leads me to believe that we will all end up with something we can live with. I know for certain that a pleasant working environment is more important than money or anything else, and it is my sincere hope that we get there together.

I also know for certain that no amount of money and no seniority number would be worth going through what those folks at USAir/America West are going through (no disrespect to those folks intended).

I'm definitely looking forward to us all being one team. We have a whole lot more in common than we realize.

Regards,
TW

PS., Please disregard the post where I said a "40 year-old stagnant carrier". That sounds more like a layover gone bad. . . . . really bad!

 

[jonjuan]

Career expectations. Mature company versus growing company.

And his name was B I N G O. Get it, WOODY?

 

[MINIME]

[
Regards,
TW

PS., Please disregard the post where I said a "40 year-old stagnant carrier". That sounds more like a layover gone bad. . . . . really bad! [/QUOTE]

Oh man! My stomach hurts I laughed so hard.

Cmmon TY, in my neck of the woods, 40 is young and barely broken in.

 

[PapaWoody]

And his name was B I N G O. Get it, WOODY?

Maybe, maybe not. One, if you think that Southwest had no growth opportunities available to it and that it would not grow over the next decade based upon the last two years, then you have disregarded the history of this company. Near international (Canada, Caribbean, Mexico, South America, etc.) was not a stretch, and regardless of the statements made by our CEO to smooth the stockholder approval of this deal, Southwest would have continued to grow in the future, with or without AirTran. And B , even though I am willing to acknowledge that average upgrade times at AirTran were probably going to be lower over the next decade, I would expect you to acknowledge that an upgrade at AirTran was worth about the same as being a First Officer at SWA; which particular window you look out, notwithstanding. Not a judgment, just basing an observation on objective standards of comparison.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[madjack]

Ty said: "I agree 100%, except I believe you'll find the growth WILL be there. We will be saving a lot in overlap, plus providing our pax with 35 more of your destinations, plus providing your pax with 35 more of ours!

Throw in the fact that we have barely scratched the surface, in regards to the near-international destinations; I think we will see that growth."

You will see growth when we (SWA/AAI) reach 15% ROIC, that is the metric GK is stating will trigger growth.

 

[Lear70]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

Well-said... especially the balls comment. lol

 

[ivauir]

Apparently your reading comprehension isn't too good. The "job security coming from fuel hedges" I mentioned was in response to the dude who said he/she was hired at swa in 2003. The 25-30+ year Captains at that point could give a xxxx. Some folks are slower than others. Sorry man.

Classy response and the continuation of an invalid argument.

The foundation for job security at Southwest Airlines is profitability, debt to equity, and culture. Fuel hedging isn't financial cold fusion; it doesn't generate money for nothing. It uses current profitability to control future costs.

I didn't mention when I was hired by the way.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I agree 100%, except I believe you'll find the growth WILL be there. We will be saving a lot in overlap, plus providing our pax with 35 more of your destinations, plus providing your pax with 35 more of ours!

Throw in the fact that we have barely scratched the surface, in regards to the near-international destinations; I think we will see that growth.

Ty hope you're right but fear you are wrong. Gary has stated that the fleet will not be added to until there is a 15 percent ROIC. He is very conservative so on this I take him at his word. Minus some large landscape changing event you can't get there from here at $115 oil and present ticket prices. You will see redeployment out of low yield markets toward higher yield markets. You will most likely see the 717s in the desert replacing some of the 737 classics. The overlap will be used to connect the networks. Besides if there were to be measurable growth where would the airframes come from? Even considering the combined orders from Boeing that is not that much growth percentage wise and thats if zero airframes are retired. We will be at no more than the present 684 combined airframes for a very long time to come.

 

[Lonestar]

Ha-ha. While you're at it, let's see a comparison of SWA pay and benefits in 1989 (your 16th year) relative to AirTran in 2011 (our 16th year).

Ty, I find it interesting that you chose to make a comparison in 1989. So let's do just that.

In 1989, while SWA pilots were flying for a good wage (and making plenty more in profit sharing and stock options), several hundred future AirTran pilots were crossing a line at Eastern. They were making the statement to the rest of the industry that they will gladly stab their brothers in the back for their own gain. (That's likely why your management simply yawned at your 98% strike vote!)

And about that gain. They gained employement at an airline run by the very Eastern management they sold out for. Eventually, one of the worst (an Eastern 'street captain', or replacement player) was elected as your union's president. In that position, he helped negotiate the first of several sub-standard contracts. That is until the announcement of SWA's intent to acquire AAI. What a proud history indeed.

 

[Lonestar]

Worth noting, that particular ex-Eastern pilot did move on to better thing. Recently, he was caught serving alchoholic beverages to a flight attendant's under-age daughter. Very classy!

 

[Ty Webb]

You will most likely see the 717s in the desert replacing some of the 737 classics.

Not sure what you mean here. Usually, when people say "in the desert" it means mothballed. 717 uses less fuel than 737NG and the leases must be paid whether they fly or not. Given that the 717 costs 20% less to operate, they're not likely to be parked, so you must mean PHX or LAS based?

The overlap will be used to connect the networks.

I'm talking ground service equipment and personnel, gates, maintenance, etc, plus cross-selling destinations. For example, Pensacola to Orange County, or Lubbock to San Juan, PR.

Besides if there were to be measurable growth where would the airframes come from? Even considering the combined orders from Boeing that is not that much growth percentage wise and thats if zero airframes are retired. We will be at no more than the present 684 combined airframes for a very long time to come.

There are (or were) a few dozen 717's down in Mehico that Boeing wanted us to find a home for. . . . . not sure what Boeing's 737 order book looks like right now or what is on the open market.

Ty's a bidnessman, but my business isn't the airline business . . . . . I'd be interested to hear what some other folks think.