SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[DougCorp-9]

This is what ACTUALLY happened at DAL/NWA. The 274 oldest NWA pilots ended up on the top of the list to account for NWA's larger attrition rates. The rest was done based on relative seniority based on 4 classes. LNB captain, SNB Captain, LNB FO's, and SNB FO's. 777's, 747's and 787's were fenced for 5 years. You can read the whole arbitrators decision on the internet if you really want the facts instead of the BS you get on FI.



Constructing the Integrated System Seniority List. The ISSL has been constructed from the pre-merger Delta and pre-merger
Northwest pilot seniority lists in effect on November 1, 2008, as provided to the Panel by the parties, in the manner set forth below. The relative position of each pilot on the pre-merger lists remained unchanged on the ISSL.
1. All pilots on long-term sick leave (12 months or longer) were removed from the pre-merger lists.
2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.
3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.
4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.
5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.
6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to paragraph 7, below.
7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom of the ISSL in order of date of hire.
8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above the next junior Northwest pilot.
9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list.
Finally, as an integral part of the ISSL we have fashioned Conditions and Restrictions that are incorporated as this Board’s Award .

 

[Lear70]

This is what ACTUALLY happened at DAL/NWA. The 274 oldest NWA pilots ended up on the top of the list to account for NWA's larger attrition rates.

The rest was done based on relative seniority based on 4 classes. LNB captain, SNB Captain, LNB FO's, and SNB FO's.

777's, 747's and 787's were fenced for 5 years. You can read the whole arbitrators decision on the internet if you really want the facts instead of the BS you get on FI.

THANK you... that's what I've been trying to convey for a while now.

 

[GuppyWN]

I will certainly not try to figger out the SLI here but you must keep in mind that NWA and DAL were both the same age, both had nearly identical financials, both had just been through bankruptsy, both had furloughed.

Gup

 

[fracpt]

Amen guppy

AMEN TO THAT. I STILL SAY THAT IF AT WAS BUYING VIRGIN OR EVEN SHUTUBLIC THAT THEY WOULD DEMAND A STAPLE JOB. WOULD THEY ALSO TAKE A PAY CUT. i THINK NOT. SORRY AT GUYS JUST MY THOUGHTS.

EITHER WAY I CAN'T WAIT TO WORK WITH EACH OF YOU. EVEN THE WHINEY BIT^(& GUYS AND GALS. CHEERS TO THE MANY BEERS WE WILL DRINK TOGETHER AND THE LIVERS THAT WILL GO BAD.

FEED YOUR OLDER CAPTAINS LOTS OF BEERS AND CHEESE BURGER lol.. SORRY OLDER CHAPS- I STILL HAVE THE LUV FOR YOU BUT I WANT YOUR SEAT. AS DO THE AT YOUNGER FOLKS

 

[NuGuy]

This is what ACTUALLY happened at DAL/NWA. The 274 oldest NWA pilots ended up on the top of the list to account for NWA's larger attrition rates.

Heyas,

This isn't really correct. The oldest pilots were "pulled out", and then the ISSL was constructed with the ratios mentioned. Those pilots were then "plugged" into the list one spot senior to the NWA pilot one number junior to them.

No one jumped to the top of the list because of their age.

Nu

 

[scrub]

It looks like it will be about 1800 names longer!!!!!!!!!

 

[DougCorp-9]

Heyas,

This isn't really correct. The oldest pilots were "pulled out", and then the ISSL was constructed with the ratios mentioned. Those pilots were then "plugged" into the list one spot senior to the NWA pilot one number junior to them.

No one jumped to the top of the list because of their age.

Nu

I stand corrected....never was good at legal speak.

 

[27 driver]

AMEN TO THAT. I STILL SAY THAT IF AT WAS BUYING VIRGIN OR EVEN SHUTUBLIC THAT THEY WOULD DEMAND A STAPLE JOB. WOULD THEY ALSO TAKE A PAY CUT. i THINK NOT. SORRY AT GUYS JUST MY THOUGHTS.

EITHER WAY I CAN'T WAIT TO WORK WITH EACH OF YOU. EVEN THE WHINEY BIT^(& GUYS AND GALS. CHEERS TO THE MANY BEERS WE WILL DRINK TOGETHER AND THE LIVERS THAT WILL GO BAD.

FEED YOUR OLDER CAPTAINS LOTS OF BEERS AND CHEESE BURGER lol.. SORRY OLDER CHAPS- I STILL HAVE THE LUV FOR YOU BUT I WANT YOUR SEAT. AS DO THE AT YOUNGER FOLKS

Funny

 

[27 driver]

I will certainly not try to figger out the SLI here but you must keep in mind that NWA and DAL were both the same age, both had nearly identical financials, both had just been through bankruptsy, both had furloughed.

Gup

I will have to agree with Gup here. DAL and NWA were very similar airlines with similar demographics. This is going to be interesting. Popcorn anyone.

 

[T45Flyer]

Both Delta and NWA were ALPA carriers also with pre-existing language about how a merger would take place. This is a totally different situation.

-T45

 

[madjack]

this debate is not constructive

 

[kwick]

Yes, but one can argue that if we made half of what we do now, there would be greater growth opportunities at SWA- and hence more pilots underneath us and on our list. In fact I can think of several times when we have traded money for growth - and in many contracts in industry history: go back to B-scales- (that's how it was sold anyway)

The idea that money doesn't affect seniority I believe is a misnomer- its not everything- but it is a factor-
It should still go to arbitration and the debate left to our NCs but I also don't want you to be too disappointed if the SLI is tilted in swa's favor bc we already have a better contract than the one you hope to fight to gain- and bc we purchased you.

I 100% agree w/ the previous poster- negotiating this on FI, has no benefits- but can snowball into a serious cancer if either side gets too attached to their opinion of how this ought to go down.

Don't be too surprised if it's tilted in AT's favor to reflect the quicker up-
grades.

Senior AT F/O's should not have to wait longer to upgrade than they
would have without the merger.

 

[Dude]

Senior AT F/O's should not have to wait longer to upgrade than they
would have without the merger.

But we should? I am just asking. Would going from $79/hour to $111/trip (approximately $130K/year) make you feel better about a longer upgrade? (no sarcasm, just an honest question for discussion) Upgrades are going to take a lot longer over here.

 

[T3700]

Why do you think upgrades are going to take longer? You will be going from a no growth mode to a growth mode. There will be many more upgrades with the merger than without the merger.

It is not all about the pay either, going from being able to hold weekends and holidays off to being back on reserve is not my idea of an improvement in QOL.

 

[luv2fly]

SWA is not going into growth mode because of the AAI acquisition. The 200 or so newhires next year have nothing to do with AirTran.

Is it really what side of the airplane you sit on? Our FO pay is more, in most cases, than AAI captains. Our Captain pay is tremendously higher than AAI's Captins rates. So your senior AAI FO's want our FO rates (higher than AAI Captains rate) and a quick upgrade (before SWA FOs that have longer service years)?

Talking about getting the cake and wanting to eat it to.

 

[canyonblue]

Senior AT F/O's should not have to wait longer to upgrade than they would have without the merger.

They wouldn't have to if their company didn't get bought, but it did, and now you get the consequences of that action. Senior AT F/O's wont be the only ones waiting longer to upgrade, so will some current junior AT CA's.

 

[Slug]

You pay me SWA captain rates and I'll yank gear for the next 22 years. It would have been 17, but lets not go there.

 

[jball2]

I am guessing Kwick is a senior FO at AT. I am a senior FO at SWA. I don't pretend to have this figured out though. Let me ask you this Kwick. Was Airtran your first choice? I just had a very young, somewhat senior, captain there tell me how he came to Airtran to get his time and leave and said that was pretty much the idea most of his classmates had. When it came time to leave there was nowhere to go. I came to SWA because I wanted to stay at SWA. I am not bashing your pilot group as I have many friends there. It is just that most of them viewed their job as a stepping stone until the industry stopped and they had nowhere to go.

Again, AT pilots, this is not a dig on you. You are a great group of pilots who are going to LUV what is coming your way. I am just going by what my AT friends are saying about THEIR decision to go to Airtran.

 

[Kharma Police]

I am guessing Kwick is a senior FO at AT. I am a senior FO at SWA. I don't pretend to have this figured out though. Let me ask you this Kwick. Was Airtran your first choice? I just had a very young, somewhat senior, captain there tell me how he came to Airtran to get his time and leave and said that was pretty much the idea most of his classmates had. When it came time to leave there was nowhere to go. I came to SWA because I wanted to stay at SWA. I am not bashing your pilot group as I have many friends there. It is just that most of them viewed their job as a stepping stone until the industry stopped and they had nowhere to go.

Again, AT pilots, this is not a dig on you. You are a great group of pilots who are going to LUV what is coming your way. I am just going by what my AT friends are saying about THEIR decision to go to Airtran.

I can't answer for Kwick only for myself. I was hired at AirTran in the summer of 2004. No other airline at that time was hiring (including Southwest I believe). I live in Atlanta and have family here too and did not wish to move or commute which left me only two airlines to choose from. The other Atlanta based airline at the time was in Chapter 11 with pilots on furlough. When I was interviewed I was told that they were hiring people to be captains and to expect to upgrade in three years or less to which I did. I came to AirTran because I wanted to not because I ran out of options. AirTran gave me pretty much everything that was promised during my interview and contrary to how some of my fellow pilots understandably might feel, I enjoy coming to work and I enjoy being a captain.

So, if you are a senior FO then it would put you at around 10 years with Southwest, around the year 2000ish? Every single major airline was hiring during that time frame. Just curious, why did you choose Southwest and was it your first choice?

 

[luv2fly]

Most every pilot that has been at SWA for ten years is a Captain. By the way SWA hired over 400 pilots in 2004. Followed by over 400 each year for the next 4 years.