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SWA - AAI question

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Lear,

Maybe you should take another look at the Muse scenario. There was a negotiated list. It was not a staple. Their MEC rejected it.

The way to avoid a Muse scenario is to be reasonable and negotiate an integrated list in good faith. Stalling the talks and making unreasonable demands doesn't fit the bill.
Very true, and there's lessons to be learned there, for certain.

That said, I don't think we're making "unreasonable demands". Not everything I've heard from our MC is for discussion of course (and I'm sure they're not telling me anything privileged, but rather more direct and frank talk about what the updates mean), but from what I'm hearing, our requests aren't being met with hostility or rejection, simply normal negotiation responses in a very professional and positive way and vice-versa.

Again, I truly believe that cooler heads will prevail and, as far as the ISL goes, I think this will all be a memory this time next year, arbitration or not. I think you'll find that the vast majority of us will be just fine with what the MC's work out and the ones who aren't will retreat to Atlanta and camp out. ;)
 
"I know it is hard to imagine but most of the SWA guys really want this to go well for both sides if it is going to go at all"


"Every SWA pilot I fly with, or they have flown with, or I share a crew change with, or we are down in the lounge before a trip, or down in the bar on the overnight express the same sentiments, they do not want this acquisition because of the apparent disrespectful attitudes of the AT work group generated largely on this forum."

Sad, but true.

"You want the job, and the pilots don't want you here. That is the reality."




Here's a few of your quotes. They contradict each other.

You have claimed that you speak for SWA pilots, Flight Attendants and Mechanics.

I suggest you march into Steve Chases office with your MC and put all your quotes on the desk. Picture their faces as they read them. They'll let you know how your helping to create a successful airline. Trust me.
 
Captain AM pretty much sums up three months of my flying partners opinions as well: 100% against this deal, sorry, just like you guys are probably 100% for, wonder why.

We'll make it work, then we'll all be one happy family, but until then, even Gary says we are to remain competitors, for which I agree.
 
Captain AM pretty much sums up three months of my flying partners opinions as well. 100% against, sorry, just like you guys are probably 100% for, wonder why.


I understand the sentiment. Its delivery is venomous and wreaks of spite. Wrapped up in a level of arrogance that reminds me of a USAir East pilot.

O.K. I've run out of adjectives :)
 
"You want the job, and the pilots don't want you here. That is the reality."




Here's a few of your quotes. They contradict each other.

You have claimed that you speak for SWA pilots, Flight Attendants and Mechanics.

I suggest you march into Steve Chases office with your MC and put all your quotes on the desk. Picture their faces as they read them. They'll let you know how your helping to create a successful airline. Trust me.

I can tell you what the FA's and mechanics are saying to me. So I tell you what I hear. They are not on this forum so if I want to speak for them I will. You don't have to believe it. Although it is the fact. Any SWA pilot dispute this? Speak up please?

Steve Chase I am certain are reading AT pilots like your quotes and I know what his face looks like when he reads them. I know what ALL SWA pilots looks are when they read them. And my whole point all along that you want to label arrogant is that it is posters like you that is galvanizing our work group against this acquisition. Is it that difficult to understand?

We are a successful airline without you. So how are my posts afffecting that. It is your posts that could be harming yours and your co-workers potential of working for OUR successful airline. Get over yourself!
 
I can tell you what the FA's and mechanics are saying to me. So I tell you what I hear. They are not on this forum so if I want to speak for them I will. You don't have to believe it. Although it is the fact. Any SWA pilot dispute this? Speak up please?

Steve Chase I am certain are reading AT pilots like your quotes and I know what his face looks like when he reads them. I know what ALL SWA pilots looks are when they read them. And my whole point all along that you want to label arrogant is that it is posters like you that is galvanizing our work group against this acquisition. Is it that difficult to understand?

We are a successful airline without you. So how are my posts afffecting that. It is your posts that could be harming yours and your co-workers potential of working for OUR successful airline. Get over yourself!


You're not making any sense. You're also beginning to stutter -"afffecting". Are you getting emotional. Are you going to make some stickers ?

You don't speak for anybody but yourself. A guy who can't express himself, as himself. You think you need to pretend to speak for all pilots, flight attendants and mechanics to empower your views ? I'd be very surprised if you've been at SWA for 15 years. Very.

If you had a cogent argument then I'd be happy to listen. You don't. So you'll be ignored.
 
I understand the sentiment. Its delivery is venomous and wreaks of spite. Wrapped up in a level of arrogance that reminds me of a USAir East pilot.

O.K. I've run out of adjectives :)

Not trying to play peacemaker (heaven forbid ;)), but I for one do think that this deal will be good for the company, and thus, to a certain extent, good for our pilot group (i.e. nothing impacts seniority like the company closin' down). However, I think that just as staple is a dirty word to you guys (with good reason), you guys must realize (and I think that you personally probably do, D) that relative seniority is viewed by us with the same vehemence, because it disregards the tangible differences in our career expectations. I am confident that our MC's can come to some kind of commonality, but in the end the famous SWA culture that we have cultivated is both of our groups responsibility to preserve.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody
 
Not trying to play peacemaker (heaven forbid ;)), but I for one do think that this deal will be good for the company, and thus, to a certain extent, good for our pilot group (i.e. nothing impacts seniority like the company closin' down). However, I think that just as staple is a dirty word to you guys (with good reason), you guys must realize (and I think that you personally probably do, D) that relative seniority is viewed by us with the same vehemence, because it disregards the tangible differences in our career expectations. I am confident that our MC's can come to some kind of commonality, but in the end the famous SWA culture that we have cultivated is both of our groups responsibility to preserve.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody


I agree.

I don't completely believe in the career expectations reasoning. My reasoning actually has more to do with fairness and time invested. I'm talking about my dislike for Soccer of course. Not an SLI ;)

I also understand why you feel that way. I've never heard an AirTran guy use the words "straight relative seniority".

I've heard staple many times.
 
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You're not making any sense. You're also beginning to stutter -"afffecting". Are you getting emotional. Are you going to make some stickers ?

You don't speak for anybody but yourself. A guy who can't express himself, as himself. You think you need to pretend to speak for all pilots, flight attendants and mechanics to empower your views ? I'd be very surprised if you've been at SWA for 15 years. Very.

If you had a cogent argument then I'd be happy to listen. You don't. So you'll be ignored.

You can spin this any way you want to satisfy any of your neurotic needs. Your immaturity is impossible to reason with. Anyone who uses an alias as "dicko" must have some esteem issues that will be impossible to reason with anyways.

From what I hear, The FA's don't like this, and the mechanics don't like this. I do not speak for them. Happy now dick-o?

My message is consistent. The voices here on Flight Info is contributing to the dislike of this acquisition from the pilots I talk to. 100% of them for a fact. I do not speak for them and others on here have openly agreed.

Good luck dick-o. I hope you are not screwing yourself out of a good opportunity. This purchase of your airline is far from over.
 
Not trying to play peacemaker (heaven forbid ;)), but I for one do think that this deal will be good for the company, and thus, to a certain extent, good for our pilot group (i.e. nothing impacts seniority like the company closin' down). However, I think that just as staple is a dirty word to you guys (with good reason), you guys must realize (and I think that you personally probably do, D) that relative seniority is viewed by us with the same vehemence, because it disregards the tangible differences in our career expectations. I am confident that our MC's can come to some kind of commonality, but in the end the famous SWA culture that we have cultivated is both of our groups responsibility to preserve.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Good post. And you may be right. But then again that is the "crystal ball" in the airline business that has always existed.

Maybe dicko has Ty Webb on his ignore list so he hasn't seen how he defends relative seniority as being the only fair solution.
 
Good post. And you may be right. But then again that is the "crystal ball" in the airline business that has always existed.

Maybe dicko has Ty Webb on his ignore list so he hasn't seen how he defends relative seniority as being the only fair solution.

Every time I see your PIC, it makes me want to pop in the dre CD, and sip on some Gin and Juice.LOL
 
15 pages. Same ten guys going in circles. I already settled this on the rogue thread.

The SLI will go date of hire. You get some upgrades. We get a good contract. Everybody goes home happy.

Personally I don't think we will ever get to be SWA pilots. This career has been a dead end from day one. I got management/scheduling trying to screw me at every corner. I got a union that has screwed me for years. 60 year olds who can't hang it up or don't like term limits REALLY SCREWED ME! Then I catch a break and get bought by SWA and surprise, surprise... my fellow pilots are now trying to screw me.

So fine guys burn the place down. We have a fat hiring boom coming and I am young. Just one request... If we are going to blow this thing up can we do it fast. Need to get my resume out so I can be on the front end of the hiring wave. Knowing this industry, it will take years, which will, of course, screw me!
 
15 pages. Same ten guys going in circles. I already settled this on the rogue thread.

The SLI will go date of hire. You get some upgrades. We get a good contract. Everybody goes home happy.

Personally I don't think we will ever get to be SWA pilots. This career has been a dead end from day one. I got management/scheduling trying to screw me at every corner. I got a union that has screwed me for years. 60 year olds who can't hang it up or don't like term limits REALLY SCREWED ME! Then I catch a break and get bought by SWA and surprise, surprise... my fellow pilots are now trying to screw me.

So fine guys burn the place down. We have a fat hiring boom coming and I am young. Just one request... If we are going to blow this thing up can we do it fast. Need to get my resume out so I can be on the front end of the hiring wave. Knowing this industry, it will take years, which will, of course, screw me!
Too early to be drinking, buddy... ;)

Relax, nothing we can do about it anyway. :beer:
 
Personally I don't think we will ever get to be SWA pilots. This career has been a dead end from day one. I got management/scheduling trying to screw me at every corner. I got a union that has screwed me for years. 60 year olds who can't hang it up or don't like term limits REALLY SCREWED ME! Then I catch a break and get bought by SWA and surprise, surprise... my fellow pilots are now trying to screw me.

So fine guys burn the place down. We have a fat hiring boom coming and I am young. Just one request... If we are going to blow this thing up can we do it fast. Need to get my resume out so I can be on the front end of the hiring wave. Knowing this industry, it will take years, which will, of course, screw me!

I think it is a shame also. Words are very powerful. We all have our hopes and desires but to get personal with others opinions, well that starts displaying ones character and what I have seen it is not one that is desirable to work with.
 
Too early to be drinking, buddy... ;)

Relax, nothing we can do about it anyway. :beer:

Absolutely there is something we can do about this. I have written my union executives (both former and present), my union reps and the members of the M/A committee more that a couple times. And I am happy to report that each and every one of them have responded back each time. They are prepared and understand the needs and concerns of our 5900 pilots. They share many of these concerns and are aware of the hopes and desires of the Airtran pilots and their union.

SWA pilots know that this could be the largest single event in our collective history with our careers at SWA. And many, like me, are involved to communicate what concerns I may have. And our union is listening.

I hope Airtran pilots are doing the same with their union. If this is going to be our largest single event, it should be yours also.
 
I think you misunderstood what is being asked for. It's not a date to integrate OPERATIONS at the AIRLINE level fully, it's a date to integrate SENIORITY LISTS with SWAPA representation for ALL pilots. That's perfectly acceptable to bring into the Process Agreement between the two unions.

I don't understand the need for a firm date and date for SWAPA representation of all pilots. As the Republic/Midwest/Fronter SLI process has shown, SLI can take a long time. Forcing the process to meet a deadline puts a gun to the negotiators' heads and precludes coming to a mediated agreement instead of a rushed arbitration. Plus, Ty will get to assuredly enjoy his Seat and Seniority in the meanwhile.

As for AAI ALPA transition to SWAPA representation, that should not happen until the process is complete. I could understand a time frame after SLI completion but not a hard date after the date of aquisition. Otherwise, SWAPA will be negotiating against itself and ripe for a DFR lawsuit. Also, ALPA would likely have a fit to lose their dues income without due process.

At the same time, it makes me happy to see AAI pilots spend ALPA money with ALPA having little hope of a future at SWA. Maybe Johnsonrod abd Dicko will have to pay an assessment to backup their positions--even better.
 
I don't understand the need for a firm date and date for SWAPA representation of all pilots. As the Republic/Midwest/Fronter SLI process has shown, SLI can take a long time

They want the Swapa contract and windfall as soon as possible. Its only about their seats after they get the contract windfall. Right now it is about getting the windfall then they will demand their seats and seniority. It is the definition of talking out both sides of your mouth.
 
It is either about the money or it isn't. You don't get it both ways.
 
I hope Airtran pilots are doing the same with their union. If this is going to be our largest single event, it should be yours also.
Oh we are... but past that, what can we do? Except continue to do our jobs, enjoy the flying and our coworkers, and go home and spend time with our families.

Really, getting worked up about all of it in the interim does exactly ZERO good, and may actually do more HARM than good, getting ourselves irritated and making decisions in anger rather than looking at the long-term track of working with each other for decades to come.

So yes, I voice my opinions to the MC and let our MEC know that I agree with their "hands-off" tack with the MC then simply sit back and let them do their job, knowing that beyond that, there's nothing I can do about what works out in the end.
 
Lear,

What does this bit mean?
ALPA has a standing policy on mergers/acquisitions that, rather than having the MEC Status Reps and/or Chair and Vice-Chair micro-managing everything the Merger Committee is working on, they let the Merger Committee operate completely autonomous from the MEC.

That means the Merger Committee doesn't answer to anyone except the line pilots. They give regular reports to the MEC in closed session regarding details of what's going on, sticky issues, and overall plan of action, and the MEC gives their thoughts and inputs on the issues, but the MEC doesn't DIRECT the course of action to the Merger Committee.

In most cases in an ALPA structure, each committee chair is appointed by the MEC Chairman or the MEC Reps by majority vote, then the committee chair appoints his/her committee members. In this case, each committee member was selected by all of the MEC Status Reps by majority vote (most were unanimous), and once appointed, are *SUPPOSED* to be left alone by the MEC reps and officers, simply being told "Go out and get the best you can get for our pilots".

A change in status structure (4 new voting reps and a shift in roll call voting ability as well) that we are looking at *COULD* alter this approach, depending on who gets elected next month in MKE and MCO. However, so many people are happy with the majority of the Merger Committee members and so few people have any issue with what's being done by this committee that I don't see that approach changing. It's possible, but you'd get a large amount of lash-back from the pilots who are already jittery as it is if you go changing something that's perceived to be working, especially given our internal political squabbles that pop up from time to time.

So, in summary, the "hands-off" tack that the union leadership has with our Merger Committee is one that I support. Micromanaging from the top usually ends up with bad results, a la Muse. So we let the MC do their job and, when they come back to us and say "This is what we have, it's the best for our pilots and for the merged group afterwards, now vote on it", the MEC won't have the ability to withhold it from vote while trying to get a sweeter deal, we'll vote on it and, assuming it also passes SWA vote, we'll move on with merging two great companies with one great future. :)

Sorry so long-winded, hard not to when it's that much info... ;)
 
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ALPA has a standing policy on mergers/acquisitions that, rather than having the MEC Status Reps and/or Chair and Vice-Chair micro-managing everything the Merger Committee is working on, they let the Merger Committee operate completely autonomous from the MEC

Is that the reason for LH and TO being in all of the M/C negotiations? To watch but not micromanage? It sure sounds like they are the problem and are holding up progress on the SLI. If it is ALPA policy, why are they there and why is your transition team involved with the process agreement? Doesn't seem to be in anyones best interest for this to continue.
 

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