SW has a TA

[Lear70]

Something about a camel's nose under the tent flap comes to mind...

There's no reason Southwest can't run Canada and Mexico on their own.

For people who haven't dealt one-on-one with Mexican officials, good luck trying to take over a route that one of their airlines already operates. They're BIG on ZERO cabotage down there; it's so bad you can't even fly EMPTY point-to-point inside Mexico.

It's a completely different animal than Alaska or Hawaii... If your reps can hammer that out of the T.A., great. If not... well... it's your T.A., but I wouldn't vote for giving ANY scope of ANY kind away, including additional codeshare.

Best of luck!

 

[tzskipper]

CaptWidgeon

did you miss the second half of the first paragraph? didn't ata close the doors in early april? there's a huge difference between flying routes to replace a company that doesn't exist versus letting another company 'test the waters', then if they are money makers taking over those routes.

With all due respect, you need to review some recent history between ATA and SW. ATA was "re-structuring" under the leadership of.... drum roll please... Mr. X (ex SW CFO, now on the sw Board of Directors?), during which ATA pulled out of FLL, RSW, MCO, SRQ, PIE, PHX, DEN, SFO, LAS... and gave up 10 (?) gates in MDW to SW.

In short, ATA existed while SW had it's way with it. Looking back, it sure seems obvious who was calling the shots.

 

[indytestdude]

Tanker Clown

Tanker Clown,

Unions didn't destroy America.

I hate the Military Guys (I am retired AF by the way), who preach self reliance and rugged individualism all the while feeding off the public treasury.

Shut your pie hole and continue to suck the Govt tit.

PS. Wish I knew who you were so I could black ball you at Southwest. Bite the bait and PM so I can make sure you don't darken the doors of a Company I LUV.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

skipper i agree with you completely. i'm not going to sit here and say swa is all goody goody in terms of business, it's business. if they see an opportunity they'll jump, we've been very lucky to have mgmt that keeps us able to move quickly and take generally good, calculated risks. with the ata deal i don't know what went on behind closed doors, but i do think it was smart business decisions that helped swa in a number of ways.

ata worked out good for us, what are the chances though that we'll get a codeshare with a company that's financially weak AND get a former mgmt member in to run that company? i've got to guess slim to none.

when kelly said we were signing with westjet i wasn't happy but i was open minded. if they have a good product in place, a good name and rep and we can make some $$$ quickly with minimal cash output, maybe i'll get behind ya', but show me your plan. when they announced volaris, a company that doesn't even fly to the u.s. yet, has less than 20 aircraft, and you tell me they are more capable of flying cross border than us, uhhhh, i'm not quite buying that one.

all we want to do is keep this company from going down the same road others before us have gone. if kelly has a stellar plan that codeshare will make us a ton of money and not hurt us like it has others before then good, let's take a look, but so far all i've seen is smoke and mirrors.

 

[canyonblue]

For people who haven't dealt one-on-one with Mexican officials, good luck trying to take over a route that one of their airlines already operates. They're BIG on ZERO cabotage down there; it's so bad you can't even fly EMPTY point-to-point inside Mexico.

This is the hardest thing to explain to some of the guys over here. Many tell me not to worry that we will just take over the flying to Mexico and Canada when we feel like it.

That's what we're up against.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Ben,

DEN and RSW were indeed codeshare cities. What's ATA, Braniff, Eastern, and Pam Am have in common? Short answer. They can't defend someone taking their cities and routes.

Do you really think WestJet and Volaris are just going to hand over their routes after they building them up? Do you really think their governments are going to graciously allow it?

Ben, give me an example of codeshare by a major airline that grew said airlines seniority list. When your done trying I'll give you SEVERAL examples of codeshare that ended up with tprops and rjs on mainline routes.

I appreciate your opinion Ben. Just don't agree with it. Thanks for your time.

Gup

Gup,

I completely agree with you, but there is no way that we will ever vote down our TA (when we have one ...) because of dudes like Benh that SWA has hired over the years. Right from the military to SWA where from day one they have been told that we are the best and we are different, and that much of all the other risks in the industry don't apply to Southwest because we kick their ass.

There are so many dudes on our list that truly believe, like Ben, that ATA was perfect example or codeshare that helped us and believe that future scope and codeshare would be good for us. They have no clue.

For the record, I am also military but I also lived the codeshare reality (and job impact) at Delta prior to SWA. BenH needs to check with a few of his USAF buds at other airlines if he really believes codeshare opens markets that we will just take over ourselves. Very naive but absolutely what GK wants you to believe.

For example, right now we could fly from MCO to San Juan with no other training, rafts, equipment, certification or any other b.s. that naysayers claim are preventing our flights out of CONUS. Airtrain fills their flights on this route every day in a 737-700. So could we.

Obviously Canada would be no issue as well, demonsrated by RJ's taking over mainline flying for Delta into Toronto and Montreal among others. Cetainly if Comair and others can figure it out, we can learn how to fly north of the border.

That being said Gup, I've given up trying to explain the realities of codeshare and job outsourcing to guys I fly with. It will pass, we will codeshare and it will be a long time, if ever, we fly beyond our borders. Word is we fought off RJ's for now. That will change someday too I bet. Just my sad but humble opinon.

BD

 

[DH2WN]

All I've heard is 3% pay increase, increased 401K match, full retro and NO DOMESTIC CODE SHARE.

We'll see what it looks like when it comes out.

Nice highlighting?? You are a buffoon. The company had no intention of domestic code share. They hung it out like a carrot and bait and switched the NC committee to lay down on the international code share.

Never ceases to amaze me how stupid pilots are.

/voting no on the contract that has any codeshare language. The company can keep their raises and retro.

 

[K-Mart]

Gary is too busy wasting our money on stupid projects like RNP to go to places like San Juan, Mexico or Canada.

Regarding Codeshare, I don't believe it will generate much revenue based on the economy and uncertainty sorrounding it. Also I don't think it would be wise for us to be spending money on those places right now either.

What we should be focusing on is domestic markets like Cinnci, Memphis, Minneapolis(Yeah it sucks) Laguardi (Yeah it really sucks) and I am sure there are others. Where I am peeved is all the waste full BS projects like RNP, Glass for the -300, EFB etc...... and all the managers in those projects getting their trips pulled to manage them. This company is becoming a bit like the Gov in which people have their little cheese issued down from the man. I say cut the cheese out and focus on expansion into the above said markets.

As far as the TA, I'll look at it and get back to you. Our union is a joke for not releasing some of the info though. Again, trip pull cheese monsters.

Good day!

 

[Benhuntn]

couple of things, one 600,000 unemployed is nothing. Nancy P. said 500,000,000 Americans lose their jobs every month. My math says that is 6 billion by years end. Two, I really don't like being generalized. I have said I am open to reading the agreement. I will form my opinion when that is done. I think military pilots throughout the company will do the same. Third Gary Kelly has stated that we would learn the business and then take what we learn to move into suitable markets. Codeshare would enable us to follow loads in different cities and make our marketing efforts better. I have no reason to think that our CEO is lying to us. He hasn't lied in the past and I don't think he is now. If you distrust our management then you should ask yourself why you are here. fourth, for K-mart why are you flying jets? With your outstanding marketing knowledge you are wasting talent. I suggest you seek a mangagement job or form an airline of your own....just thoughts not a sermon...

 

[Lear70]

couple of things, one 600,000 unemployed is nothing. Nancy P. said 500,000,000 Americans lose their jobs every month.

That would be a neat trick. Last I checked, there were only 310,000,000 TOTAL people living in America (July, 2008 census). Around 6 Billion is the Total estimated population of the entire planet...

Not to sidetrack your thought...

Third Gary Kelly has stated that we would learn the business and then take what we learn to move into suitable markets. Codeshare would enable us to follow loads in different cities and make our marketing efforts better. I have no reason to think that our CEO is lying to us. He hasn't lied in the past and I don't think he is now.

It's quite possible he doesn't personally know the issues involved in Mexican flying. Don't know what to tell you, except I'm 100% certain of what I'm speaking of concerning Mexico flying and any attempts to take over something their own countrymen are already flying. It just won't happen.

 

[K-Mart]

Codeshare is a waste of time right now. When the economy sucks so goes the vacations too. It might make finacial sense when the economy turns around but not right now. You don't need marketing experience to figure that out. Either way, we are pissing money away on stupid projects.

I'm worried about unemployment going to 12-15%, not frickin codeshare. If unemployment goes to 12-15% happens then all bets are off. I would expect more capacity cuts in the fall and unfortunatley the F- word. Codeshare is a waste of time right now.

Peace and Love for everyone!

 

[Bake]

Lear, those numbers looked quite large to me as well. Hey, but coming from Nancy P. who wouldn't believe it. I think you just made BenHuntin look like a Kernal.

 

[Benhuntn]

Washington Times Feb 9th, National Politics. Nancy P. announced 500,000,000 million Americans are losing their jobs every month. Her numbers not mine. I doubt she was trying to scare people, she just went to public schools.

 

[Benhuntn]

Bake, KMA!

 

[Lear70]

Washington Times Feb 9th, National Politics. Nancy P. announced 500,000,000 million Americans are losing their jobs every month. Her numbers not mine. I doubt she was trying to scare people, she just went to public schools.

I was just giving you crap...

Nancy P is an idiot, but we all know that.

 

[GuppyWN]

Codeshare would enable us to follow loads in different cities and make our marketing efforts better.

Ben, Absofrigginlutely! Now we're getting somewhere. Would you rather have verbage in the contract that stipulates taking those routes or just "trust" Gary? Let me get on record that the only way I will accept codeshare is if the contract stipulates triggers in which we "take" routes once they qualify. If you are willing to take Gary on his word then you are naive my friend.

Lastly, you don't think Gary has lied to us? Seriously? Do the following quotes sound familiar?

"I will abide by the section one TA"

"I will not sell tickets of other carriers on southwest.com"

"All I want for Christmas are a few gates at MDW."

"in accordance with SL32 we will grow by 5%."

Since the above quotes by Mr. Kelly were made he has manipulated section one and introduced 2 codeshare partners and you can buy WestJet tickets on southwest.com for routes that you and I don't fly. Gary came out a few weeks ago and said he will not abide by the growth metrics in SL32.

Not a very good track record if you ask me. I want to trust Gary. I'll trust him more if he puts his word on paper in our contract.

Gup

 

[CA Calypso]

I'm with you Gup. The contract language must be iron tight with quantifiable triggers for us to take over the flying or cease the codeshare -- and not subject to any "creative interpretation." There can be no open verbiage like "debillitating circumstances."

The stakes are too high and, more importantly, there are more codeshare partners on the way : hawaii, alaska, caribbean, etc.

In my opinion, many of our guys can be naive concerning codeshare. They have never experienced its effects first hand or don't know someone who has. They are too willing to trust. This is not Herb's show anymore.....

 

[TZtoSWA]

couple of things, one 600,000 unemployed is nothing. Nancy P. said 500,000,000 Americans lose their jobs every month. My math says that is 6 billion by years end. Two, I really don't like being generalized. I have said I am open to reading the agreement. I will form my opinion when that is done. I think military pilots throughout the company will do the same. Third Gary Kelly has stated that we would learn the business and then take what we learn to move into suitable markets. Codeshare would enable us to follow loads in different cities and make our marketing efforts better. I have no reason to think that our CEO is lying to us. He hasn't lied in the past and I don't think he is now. If you distrust our management then you should ask yourself why you are here. fourth, for K-mart why are you flying jets? With your outstanding marketing knowledge you are wasting talent. I suggest you seek a mangagement job or form an airline of your own....just thoughts not a sermon...

Then if Gary doesn't lie to us why won't he put it in writing that we will eventually takeover near international ops as part of our Section 1 language?

You don't negotiate contracts based on handshake agreements and assumptions that mgmnt won't lie to us. You get it in writing or you are subject to being screwed sooner or later. This is based on my personal experiences. Of course I don't know as much as someone (like you BenH) since I have only 15 years and 4 airlines worth of experience with collective bargaining agreements.

 

[Bake]

Bake, KMA!

Dang, you--Told Me--- I will back off now because you are the all knowing, messiah of airline ops and union negotiating. Excuse me and forgive me for invading your territory sire. I will forever be in your debt. AHole.

 

[Benhuntn]

Gup thanks for the inputs I will keep them in mind when we get something to look at. TZ never made any claims as to knowing anything about contracts.

Blake your just a loser man! I feel sorry for your momma. All that pushing and look it was for nothing.